Masochism

[PorcelainLark]

Do any of you feel bad about being masochistic? I feel ashamed of being a masochist, personally. Where do you draw the line between pleasure and self-harm? How do you know whether to trust a partner if your desires can be self-destructive? The painter Francis Bacon fascinates me because of his masochism.

[OnionPetal]

Whilst I am not masochistic, I know that it's fairly common in the child-love community, so I have a lot of friends with those fantasies. And as someone with a few... ummm... 'unusual' interests, I've always found these topics really fascinating.

In the context of child love, masochistic fantasies are really fun because they break that stereotype about power dymanics for MAPs, and it gives the kid that power/control. You probably can't get more harmless when discussing power dynamics, than wanting the kid to take full control of the situation. So there's definitely nothing to feel ashamed about in that context. Some friends have also expressed to me that they have no internal conflict about some of their more extreme masochistic fantasies, because they recognise them as just fantasy.

However, when it comes to actual practices IRL (i.e., with a legal-aged, consenting partner), then it's really important to consider safety. I'm not an expert on these practices, but I also don't know the best direction to refer you regarding safety, because I've honestly seen some adult forums on this topic, where people were recommending 'safety protocol' that had me honestly concerned about the actual serious risks involved with certain activities. So as much as I love kinky fun, I always recommend people being very careful. In terms of setting self-boundaries, perhaps (when feeling most clear-headed), determining what risks are acceptable to the individual would be a good place to start. But seriously, I do value all MAPs, and I often encourage people to do whatever they can to avoid risk of serious or permanent injury. Serious accidental injuries can come with a lot of guilt for anyone, even if they are not masochistic.

As far as the question of trust... I had not really thought too deeply about this before, particularly from the more vulnerable perspective of the sub. But I had always assumed that kinky relationships are built on mutual trust. And I always thought that it's the dom's responsibility to take care of and ensure the safety of the sub. Having a long relationship with good communication and taking things slowly might help build that trust. I don't really want to think about the scary possibility that someone might violate their partner's trust, but I suppose that could come down to a consent issue. I.e., clearly delineating in advance what someone does and does not consent to. Respecting safewords, etc. Respecting these things is naturally always a requirement in any legal and healthy relationship, but I'm sure that's nothing new to you.

[DANAT4T]

I am looking at my collection of photographs of young children with BDSM teddy bears.

[PorcelainLark]

In the context of child love, masochistic fantasies are really fun because they break that stereotype about power dymanics for MAPs, and it gives the kid that power/control. You probably can't get more harmless when discussing power dynamics, than wanting the kid to take full control of the situation. So there's definitely nothing to feel ashamed about in that context. Some friends have also expressed to me that they have no internal conflict about some of their more extreme masochistic fantasies, because they recognise them as just fantasy.

Since I'm non-exclusive and this is the paraphilia section, I had in mind adult partners, but it's an interesting point.

In terms of setting self-boundaries, perhaps (when feeling most clear-headed), determining what risks are acceptable to the individual would be a good place to start.

That's the issue though, if your boundaries are too flexible but you have masochistic tendencies, then it feels like you're always in danger of ending up with an abusive partner.

As far as the question of trust... I had not really thought too deeply about this before, particularly from the more vulnerable perspective of the sub. But I had always assumed that kinky relationships are built on mutual trust. And I always thought that it's the dom's responsibility to take care of and ensure the safety of the sub. Having a long relationship with good communication and taking things slowly might help build that trust. I don't really want to think about the scary possibility that someone might violate their partner's trust, but I suppose that could come down to a consent issue. I.e., clearly delineating in advance what someone does and does not consent to. Respecting safewords, etc. Respecting these things is naturally always a requirement in any legal and healthy relationship, but I'm sure that's nothing new to you.

Sadists aren't necessarily perfect people, so I feel like getting into an s and m relationship is always courting danger. That's kind of why I find Francis Bacon interesting, he seemed to simultaneously take risks and be in control. Like his masochism wasn't self-erasing. In his paintings you don't see self-destruction, even if you see force and violence.

[OnionPetal]

Since I'm non-exclusive and this is the paraphilia section, I had in mind adult partners, but it's an interesting point.

Ah sorry, I might have known that about you before, but had forgotten. I know it's very common for MAPs (whether exclusive or non-exclusive) to have various kinks and fetishes, and I generally encourage exploring these topics because in many cases these alternate expressions of sexuality may be safer than penetrative intercourse. And it's also just important to support diverse expressions of sexuality, especially concerning MAP interests.

In terms of setting self-boundaries, perhaps (when feeling most clear-headed), determining what risks are acceptable to the individual would be a good place to start.

That's the issue though, if your boundaries are too flexible but you have masochistic tendencies, then it feels like you're always in danger of ending up with an abusive partner.

Do you feel that sadistic partners are more likely to be abusive? Or is it more a communication issue, with masochists being less inclined to express or form solid boundaries, given their preference to play out a more vulnerable/submissive role? Or is it a roughly even combination of these variables?

Sadists aren't necessarily perfect people, so I feel like getting into an s and m relationship is always courting danger. [...]

Yeah, there are definitely particular precautions that should be taken that are unique to different sexualities. Despite the obvious stereotypes, I am not aware of any research that indicates sadists are more likely to lack empathy or to have sociopathic traits. But I very well may be ignorant on that topic. I always assumed that sadists were just part of a broad spectrum of 'dominant' sexual personalities. Yes, some sadists can be sociopaths, and that can be a dangerous combination, but I am not sure how common that is. I think of dom-sub activities as really very playful, and imagine (hopefully) that all partners (especially doms) are empathetic to each other. But like said, it can be a broad spectrum.

So if a masochist is thinking about building a trusting relationship with someone, but they're not sure how extreme personality/sexual preferences would affect trust and safety, then maybe that masochist would be more comfortable finding someone who is rather mildly dominant, but is still willing to explore the fantasies of the sub in a safe way. I think it would be a lot more difficult if the sub wants to be blindly led and blindly trust the leadership of a dom. Maybe that is the fantasy that can play out, but ideally both people would need to take of the 'hats' of their respective 'roles' to really communicate realistically (and safely) exploring their desires and boundaries around that.

That, and of course taking things slow. It would probably be best not to start out with the most extreme fantasies. Take time to build trust, and properly communicate about what works and what does not. Obviously it could get a lot more complicated depending on the nature of the relationship and someone's desires. For instance if a masochist wishes to be completely financially dependent on a dom, then I could see that creating a situation where it would be really hard to jump ship if things start going south. Maybe planning (and backup plans) could help alleviate things like that, which could potentially arise in especially vulnerable situations.

[DANAT4T]

Do any of you feel bad about being masochistic? I feel ashamed of being a masochist, personally. Where do you draw the line between pleasure and self-harm? How do you know whether to trust a partner if your desires can be self-destructive? The painter Francis Bacon fascinates me because of his masochism.

What sort of fascination with Francis Bacon? Do you imagine have sex with him or do you imagine being him? Or maybe you imagine being one of his paintings? Or am I completely wrong and it is purely platonic?

[PorcelainLark]

@OnionPetal
I'll respond more in depth later.

Do any of you feel bad about being masochistic? I feel ashamed of being a masochist, personally. Where do you draw the line between pleasure and self-harm? How do you know whether to trust a partner if your desires can be self-destructive? The painter Francis Bacon fascinates me because of his masochism.

What sort of fascination with Francis Bacon? Do you imagine have sex with him or do you imagine being him? Or maybe you imagine being one of his paintings? Or am I completely wrong and it is purely platonic?

See this:

Sadists aren't necessarily perfect people, so I feel like getting into an s and m relationship is always courting danger. That's kind of why I find Francis Bacon interesting, he seemed to simultaneously take risks and be in control. Like his masochism wasn't self-erasing. In his paintings you don't see self-destruction, even if you see force and violence.

[PorcelainLark]

Do you feel that sadistic partners are more likely to be abusive? Or is it more a communication issue, with masochists being less inclined to express or form solid boundaries, given their preference to play out a more vulnerable/submissive role? Or is it a roughly even combination of these variables?

I feel like most people have an aggressive drive, and if they know a person is a masochist, they'll take advantage of it as an outlet for their aggression.

Yes, some sadists can be sociopaths, and that can be a dangerous combination, but I am not sure how common that is. I think of dom-sub activities as really very playful, and imagine (hopefully) that all partners (especially doms) are empathetic to each other. But like said, it can be a broad spectrum.

I don't think a person has to be sociopathic to cross lines.

So if a masochist is thinking about building a trusting relationship with someone, but they're not sure how extreme personality/sexual preferences would affect trust and safety, then maybe that masochist would be more comfortable finding someone who is rather mildly dominant, but is still willing to explore the fantasies of the sub in a safe way. I think it would be a lot more difficult if the sub wants to be blindly led and blindly trust the leadership of a dom. Maybe that is the fantasy that can play out, but ideally both people would need to take of the 'hats' of their respective 'roles' to really communicate realistically (and safely) exploring their desires and boundaries around that.

That, and of course taking things slow. It would probably be best not to start out with the most extreme fantasies. Take time to build trust, and properly communicate about what works and what does not. Obviously it could get a lot more complicated depending on the nature of the relationship and someone's desires. For instance if a masochist wishes to be completely financially dependent on a dom, then I could see that creating a situation where it would be really hard to jump ship if things start going south. Maybe planning (and backup plans) could help alleviate things like that, which could potentially arise in especially vulnerable situations.

I think the issue is that I'd rather not be a masochist, even though being hurt can be a turn on. I hate that I feel that way.