Is “Grooming” Just The Regular Courtship Process?

[BLueRibbon]

Excellent analysis, BeeZee.

And welcome to MAP Forum.

[aeterna91]

I agree with most of you here: most of the damage is caused by society's attitudes. As in almost all similar cases. It's not just that there are cases where the relationship is not inherently harmful and all the damage comes from social attitudes... it's that the entire social and legal system is designed in such a way as to victimize and maximize suffering that, even in relationships that are inherently harmful and where there is real abuse, the way people react multiplies the harm.

This whole premise of grooming... I think it would only make sense in the most extreme cases, like, I don't know, children who are completely isolated from society and grow up without knowing what sex is. If an adult has a daughter and raises her in a cabin in the middle of the woods and makes her believe that sex between fathers and daughters is normal and everyone does it, yes, then he is taking advantage of her lack of knowledge about life to manipulate her. But otherwise... I think it's ridiculous. As your title suggests, what people call grooming is just the usual process of courtship between people whose ages are considered immoral.

I would also like to repeat something I posted in another thread recently. My point is that the grooming discourse is an act of faith, it's completely unscientific: its double premise (you cannot consent to sex, you were manipulated into doing it & you cannot enjoy sex, you were manipulated into believing you enjoyed it) is not refutable.

How do you refute the premise that no minor can consent?
Let's suppose that a person says "hey, when I was a minor, I consented to have sex with an adult"... No, you didn't! The adult used his mental powers to make you believe that you could, but you couldn't really consent!

How do you refute the premise that AMSC is intrinsically harmful? Let's suppose that a person says "hey, when I was a minor, I had sex with an adult, I suffered no harm and I enjoyed it"... No! You actually suffered terrible damage, only you haven't realized it yet! The adult used his mental powers to make you believe you weren't being harmed, but in reality you have enormous trauma!

So, that's it! Minors can't consent, AMSC is intrinsically harmful, there is a porcelain teapot between Earth and Mars, and an invisible, incorporeal dragon in my garage. You will never be able to prove otherwise.

Perhaps he believed he was a positive influence for her just because they were in love for each other. I guess it's common that, when some MAPs realise that the narrative that they can't have a positive relationship with a young partner is wrong, they just follow their instincts, but the problem is that they can get no feedback since it has to remain a secret, so if there's something wrong they are doing and they don't realise it, they have no "observer" to tell them. Thus, it's much harder to create a healthy relationship.

Very interesting point, by the way. That is, indeed, a danger that many could overlook.

In any case, it's not much consolation that almost all of us agree on our position: we are in our echo chamber and no one in the comments on that YouTube video is going to question the narrative (all we can find is a troll commenting "U no u love it" or "sexy story"). I need my Gmail account, I use it for everything, even for work, and it's linked to my phone number, you can't just create a new one whenever you want. It seems quite likely that if I post a comment on that video trying to make people think, I'll lose my account, and I guess the same goes for the rest of you... so here we are, unable to influence the mainstream discourse.

[Rakuraku]

I think a lot of the harm is from societal stigma but pedophiles are just as capable of being shitty partners. I was forced into things I didn't want and manipulated into not transitioning by my pedophile situationship. Doubtlessly societal stigma made it harder to get over and forced me into it longer than I would have without it

[JGHeaven]

I voted that it's dependent on the situation, as it is for any relationship.

People usually date a few people before finding the one they want to settle down with. I've dated several jerks in the past. Eventually you find someone you click with and want a relationship with. I've also had one night stands with men who I just wanted to have sex with, I didn't want a relationship with them.

This idea that kids lack any emotional complexity isn't remotely realistic. When I was a kid I had friends I liked, boyfriends, people I didn't like, all the same complexity. I was also horny at times and there were people I was attracted to including adults. I can think of several guys who if I could have slept with, I would have done that in an instant. But as a kid I just felt guys were out of my league, why would a man with money and independence be interested in a kid who can't even stay out after dark? I had nothing to offer, he had everything, I didn't pursue guys mostly because it seemed pointless, I made do with boyfriends at school mostly. Some friends didn't, there were certain girls who hung out with older guys, and there were stories about some girls at school.

Grooming is when a guy talks to a young girl and shows interest that results int he girl showing interest back. Well, that's how relationships start and I spent plenty of my school time in that case looking to be groomed lol.

[XOa]

In my article "The Language of Hate and Oppression" I wrote the following,:
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"Grooming is another negative description of a BL activity. When a man goes in search of female companionship , when he buys her dinner and gifts it is called courting. This is a natural behavior which generally follows a set routine with variations accounting for individuality. Nevertheless the application of the courting process is similar down the line.
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When a BL legitimately engages in the same behavior, following the usual process, it is called predation and grooming"
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I believe the above is entirely correct
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Also the general societal opinion appears to be as follows: “When small gifts are offered to a youngster they are bestowed only as an inducement, never from feelings of love or affection."
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And this above in entirely incorrect
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XO

[RoosterDance]

I need my Gmail account... you can't just create a new one whenever you want... I guess the same goes for the rest of you... So here we are, unable to influence the mainstream discourse.

You used to be able to create one. I remember doing so as little a 4 years ago. But man, times have rapidly changed.

[PorcelainLark]

Went with: It depends on the specific individuals and circumstances involved.

If a young person is kept in the dark about sex, then grooming can be predatory. You have someone who knows about sex and sexual boundaries being able to push a person who lacks that knowledge by first love bombing them. If a young person receives sexual education earlier, then the danger of grooming because much lower. However, there are cases where a neglected child might end up doing sexual acts they're uncomfortable with because they lack parental care and feel they have no other way to get attention.

In practice, it's very hard to draw the line between "authentic" relationships and cultivated/"groomed" ones. You might really be attracted to someone, but if you don't express it because you think it's manipulative, then you'd end up pushing that person away. I think it isn't a coincidence that dating is in decline as the concept of grooming becomes such a major part of the zeitgeist; people are looking for a perfect relationship (i.e. one that spontaneously emerges, without any problems or effort) and think anything which doesn't match the ideal is bad. I think people don't understand intimacy any more. It's OK to want to have sex with people you're attracted to, I know it will seem strange to the older generation that this needs to be said, but I genuinely feel the younger generations have this powerful sense of guilt and anxiety over sex that's coloring our entire culture.