"Pedophile" is the new "Jew"

[Anonymous_Lover]

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[PorcelainLark]

Will anything change though under bourgeois democracy, given that the liberal establishment becoming a corpse in the West, and its increasingly moving in a reactionary, even fascist, direction? Things can change, sure, but this irrational outlook on sex is imparted in part because 1. bourgeois morality 2. its basically a cost free virtue-signal. Something like "free school lunch for all kids" could also be a kind of virtue signal but its tangible, concrete and has cost. Something like "protect kids from predators" has no cost, the part you could say does have cost is what the elite already wants to do: censorship, surveilance, prisons, the psychiatric/therapeutic-industrial complex as a means of managing social conflict and promoting class peace/bourgeois values, the police state etc.

A more pro-MAP attitude under something like 70s era social democracy is concievable but then that phase of history already happened. Anti-MAP structures in society like the prison, surveillance and psychiatric institutions are part of why the attitudes persist.

As you know, I don't see it that way. I think the liberal tendecies which fought for Ginsberg and NAMBLA were a genuine force, and that attitude can be reactivated again. Even if the most plausible direction of society is currently towards extremism, it's not inevitable. I feel there's more hope in resurrecting old school liberalism than banking on Marxist and anarchists critiques of liberal democracy. The attitude towards pedophiles will remain the same unless challenged. It's not obvious that anarchist communes or communist states will be more liberatory to MAPs.

[Anonymous_Lover]

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[PorcelainLark]

I think the liberal tendecies which fought for Ginsberg and NAMBLA were a genuine force, and that attitude can be reactivated again.

And what makes you think they can?

Well, I'd see it as relating to the decline of censorship in general. The publications of Henry Miller and the decline of the Hays Code. The general trend has been to see the impingements on individual freedom as unjustified. Hence you see gay marriage. However, today we have a backsliding into irrational conservatism.

You should know that NAMbLA founder Thorstein was a socialist, a Trotksyist to be exact, and wrote on what the USSR did write and wrong on YL and youth sexuality. If your familiar with actual left-wing publications then reading PIE or NAMbLA's papers/statements then your struck by how if you take MAP stuff out of it they pretty much seem like what you would read from a soft-socialist group like DSA or a vaguely Left socialist outlet which might not claim the name but is basically socialist adjacent. Ginsberg himself was a self-styled communist. PIE had ties to the Labour party where it made more of a show about being socialist which is hardly present from the party under Starmer/Blair. I think one of PIE's leaders allegedly had Soviet connections according to wikipedia.

That's fine, however, censorship is a separate issue from whether a communist or liberal democratic state is preferable. I can agree Marx and Lenin should be allowed to write and publish, without agreeing with their views.

What we seem to have in Western or "classical liberalism" is forces that aren't strictly speaking liberal pushing it to live up to its promises whereas the actual liberal establishment doesn't give a fuck about anything beyond counting their profits and now the effect of that outside pressure seems to be of no use like it was in the past.

I disagree, I think the trouble is that they have lost the courage to lead. I always think of the death penalty. If people were trying to abolish it today, the populists would prevent the abolition. The injustice we face is a popular injustice, like lynching in the South.

There is a line from Disco Elysium that is act where the protag asks: "are liberals liberal?" and one of the speakers from a Marxist group in-universe says, "no, they are reactionaries, barely distinguishable from fascists. The only true liberals left call themselves socialists." Well, that seems to be pretty damn close to the picture we see in 2026. MAPs also might be the only group where people who call themselves liberal actually are but the "classical liberal" meme is libertarian brain-poisoning, libertarianism isn't classical liberalism but a reactionary philosophy masquerading as such, particularly in the realm of economics, and I don't have time to explain why that is today.

I know the difference between liberalism and libertarianism. I don't take Austrian economics seriously. My sympathy is more to Montesquieu. What's needed is a modern day Solon, not more of Hayek's idiocy.
Regarding Disco Elysium (great game by the way, even if I disagree with the views of the creators and it's messages), there's another quote from the deserter: "I do not collaborate with murderers and pederasts of the liberal regime." I'm not convinced the contemporary populist left is self-reflective enough to avoid treating pedophiles the same way conservatives do. I think they leap on the idea of the "Epstein class" because it ties class analysis to "sexual degeneracy". That kind of opportunism is unhelpful in my opinion.

I think the historical record shows there's certainly a better chance between figures who were communist/anarchist who were openly pro-pedophile plus the actual experience of socialist states most of which set their AOC much closer to something Mu would have preferred. The USSR didn't have a set aoc beyond puberty and possession of youth erotica isn't even criminalized in Russia today -- one of the few countries where that's the case. Many former East bloc countries still have very low aocs by world standards like Serbia at 14. China's 14. And this isn't to say they are perfect or some major states like Germany or Brazil don't come close but its notable. I'm not even sure how a world of anarchist communes is supposed to enforce anti-pedophilia mandates, its clearly a superstition that is heavily maintained through censorship and social stigma and that would be harder to enforce under a hypothetical anarchist utopia. If you got caught or suspected of doing it you could probably just move away and change your commune. You have me defending anarchists now, which is something I hate doing.

Theoretically, I agree. Communism is closely linked to the abolition of the family. However, in practical terms, I'm not convinced communists are that ideologically pure. I also hate anarchists, so hey, common ground! Lets all laugh at people who talk about statism as though it's the proper level of analysis.

It seems clear that there's more opportunity for MAPs with forces that want to change things as opposed to forces that want to keep things the same like modern liberalism, particularly in its bourgeois base and establishment. It seems like nothing can fundamentally change in the West today... unless the change is bad and reactionary.

This is where I disagree. I don't think the modern liberals have as much power or influence on contemporary events. I feel that at least since Reagan, mob mentality has undermined people who actually care about principles. What's needed is someone like Bernard Williams, someone who can intelligently and forcefully challenge conventions at a fundamental level..

Your position in terms of "reactivating" old school liberal tendencies is an idealist one. The old school liberalism you speak fondly of rose for definite historical reasons and appears to be falling for definite historical reasons. Do you have any plausible structural analysis that vindicates the notion it can rise again? Otherwise, we're plowing the sea working on some dead liberal's project from anywhere from 60 to 300+ years ago. I don't advocate that MAPs help any type of political project that's pro-MAP, at best, I think MAPs mgiht try to take advantage of forces that provide an opening for us. My stance is MAPs should deprive all tendencies/groups in politics from their labor unless they get assurances from those groups they will help MAPs in some way.

Well, I am an idealist. I think historicism is self-defeating. However bad things get, I see the decline into intolerance and popular totalitarianism as detachment from reality. Everyone can agree the earth is flat without it being true. Everyone can agree pedophilia is evil without it being true. The lack of interest in truth will destroy any society. When you put expedience and prejudice ahead of truth, sooner or latter delusion will clash with reality. This is how I see contemporary society, people get into their paracosms and echo chambers, and their fantasy hides reality (somewhat like ideology in the Marxist sense), then something happens where fantasy leads to harm. People need to develop the self awareness that their fantasies aren't reality before things can change. Unless people are actually interested in the question of whether AMSC is harmful, rather than stubbornly labelling it as harmful and shouting down anyone who challenges that perspective, things are never going to change. People have to actually want to know the truth, otherwise we're stuck.

[Anonymous_Lover]

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[TheOtherKindofPride]

I don't think there is a meaningful possibility of pedophiles gaining any sort of favor anytime soon. Anti-pedophilia has reached a fever pitch akin to the Red Scare or Satanic Panic. People are using pedophila as a way to automatically demonize an enemy in a bipartisan way that people basically have no choice but to entertain to some degree to even have a conversation anymore. You can't just outright deny the claim and expect everyone to respect it anymore. Everyone feels at least a slight twinge of suspicious at every spurious claim that someone is a pedophile, especially if they are a man, especially if they "look like a pedo". This is extremely similar to how Jews were treated in many antisemitic cultures, how black people have been profiled and discriminated against in many locations in the US and how the US treated the Soviet Union back in the day. It's not about fearing real dangers, it's about desperate, agitated masses chomping at the bit to express their two minutes hate towards anyone who seems like a convenient source of all their problems.
Everyone is hopeless, desperate and scared, and when a nations becomes that way, they find a common target to blame all their problems on. its a consistent trend across time and cultures if you pay attention.
You cannot solve an emotion problem with logic and reason, and the current suicidally schizophrenic blind rage against pedophiles currently is the most emotionally charged zeitgeist that has existed anywhere in a very long time.And the powers that be are ecstatic about it, because an emotionally compromised public is an easily manipulated public. Until the vast majority of society is calm, reasonable and introspective, they will not be able to improve themselves in any meaningful way, much less get to a point where they can logically and ethically evaluate pedophilia.
Things are not going to get any better since political conflict driven by unending power struggles, economic disparity due to capitalistic profit motives delusionally relying on infinite growth with finite resources and mental erosion due to various online platforms being designed to turn people into consumer zombies instead of discerning connoisseurs are contributing to the overall decline in humanity's ability to maintain this sand castle its built upon.
The power struggles will continue to turn nations into casualties of hopeful dictators, the profit-driven economy will continue to plateau more and more until the Ouroboros cycle reaches it's inevitable conclusion, and the intentionally brain-dead masses will lose all ability to think in the ways that helped make sure this world could continue operating by the skin of it's teeth. We've been chugging along like a biker with his feet glued to the pedals so far, but now we're reaching where the sidewalk ends, and if we stop, we fall. and it wont just be a bit of bruising, we might not even survive it. Sure we could turn, but too many people are holding onto the handlebars and cant agree on which direction to go, so we just keeping moving "forward" like a child playing his videogame while his parents fight in the next room, only vaguely aware of how bad this is messing him up in he long run.
But what can we really do about it that hasn't already been tried? We're just the rats on the sinking ship. Even if they listened to us, we're just vermin to them. They'd probably just blame us for chewing on the wires or something.

the best we can hope for is that normies ignore actual pedophiles while claiming every random person they dislike is one until either the world ends soon (likely) or by some miracle things improve in a serious way, which at this point might be evidence of a god because no natural act could make it happen.
This isn't a writers block type of issue, this is a global Jenga Tower that we forgot had limited blocks. It was always going to collapse, we just didn't know exactly when.

[OnionPetal]

[...] Anti-pedophilia has reached a fever pitch akin to the Red Scare or Satanic Panic. [...] Everyone is hopeless, desperate and scared, and when a nations becomes that way, they find a common target to blame all their problems on. its a consistent trend across time and cultures if you pay attention. [...]

Go and look at the pattern lifecycle of a social hysteria, because eventually it will wane as people fatigue of it and start questioning some of the wild claims. MAPs could help that process along with some strategic planning.

[...]We're just the rats on the sinking ship. Even if they listened to us, we're just vermin to them. They'd probably just blame us for chewing on the wires or something. [...]

MAPs are far cleverer than rats. Ok, so a lot of antis view MAPs as 'vermin.' Please don't confuse their delusions with reality.

[...] Things are not going to get any better [...] the profit-driven economy will continue to plateau more and more until the Ouroboros cycle reaches it's inevitable conclusion, and the intentionally brain-dead masses will lose all ability to think [...]

[...] But what can we really do about it that hasn't already been tried? [...]

[...] the best we can hope for is that normies ignore actual pedophiles while claiming every random person they dislike is one until either the world ends soon (likely) or by some miracle things improve in a serious way, which at this point might be evidence of a god because no natural act could make it happen.
This isn't a writers block type of issue, this is a global Jenga Tower that we forgot had limited blocks. It was always going to collapse, we just didn't know exactly when.

Yeah, we're all doomed! Ok, did you get that out of your system? Blimey, you sound like an anti trying to demoralise us, but you probably just feel hopeless in this moment.

Right, so it's a tough time, and our political enemies hate us. But look at your own subject line for this thread. At the point of worst persecution in World War II, did the Jewish say, 'Well, I guess we've tried everything, we might as well give up.' Did they just lay down and accept the demise of their entire group's identity? No. They showed great cunning resolve and resilience. After the war, many got themselves into positions of influence (politics, academia, media, law) and funded organisations to protect and legitimise their identity. MAPs should take inspiration from this.

There are so many brilliant MAPs, please do not sell this movement short. Keep our honorable goals in sight: to fight the defamation and unjust persecution that hurts both MAPs and minors. To protect our people and ensure our survival in a more loving world. Even if you're out of ideas today, others may not be. There are near infinite ways to go about this, and so much that hasn't been tried in this new era of activism. We don't need all the answers today, just know that there's hope, and you're not alone in this.

[CantChainTheSpirit]

I think you're right, this is true in the way that you meant it.

Jews in many countries have suffered with prejudice, being viewed as dangerous and bad for society, different, not to be trusted. But usually it's nothing like how maps are treated. You can walk down the street openly being Jewish and in my countries you'll have no problem. You can be openly Jewish in shops, schools, work and it really isn't going to be an issue. Try that as a map and see if there's no problems. I think maps have it much much much worse than Jews.

But there have been periods and places where Jews had it much worse than maps. Nazi Germany, the holocaust, that was worse than we have it. Today, there are people in America, Britain and Europe who want to treat maps like that and they can say that out loud and not have a problem.

I think Jews have had it worse, but today, maps have are the most prejudiced group in society. States, the media, the public spread lies and hate speech against us routinely and we take it.

[sanjjula]

Nazis didn't just tell people to hate Jews, but told them that the Jews were oppressing them. This is not unlike people of today claiming pedophiles run the governments.

[RoosterDance]

Yeah, we're all doomed! Ok, did you get that out of your system? Blimey, you sound like an anti trying to demoralise us, but you probably just feel hopeless in this moment.

I think you're being a bit too hostile here. He's saying that society is currently not in a position to enact meaningful change. This affects far more than just MAPs. I generally agree with his assessment. It doesn't mean it's hopeless. It's more that there are other greater problems we have to resolve first.

In line with his original comparison, you said it yourself. The jews worked to protect and legitimise their identity after the war.