Why do people assume that being a MAP is rare?

[pedo233]

In an older post I estimated from several studies that roughly 20% to 33% of men are pedophiles or hebephiles, however most people disagreed with my conclusion, they said that the percentage is much lower.

In addition, I remember asking someone how common hebephilia is, they said its in between transgenderism and homosexuality in commonness (roughly 0.3% of men are transgender and 2% are homosexual). I showed them this meta analysis https://www.ipce.info/sites/ipce.info/f ... _fifth.pdf which estimated that roughly 3% of men are pedophiles 16% are hebephiles based on phallometric studies, and he said he doubted it.

Why do people assume that being sexually attracted to minors / children is rare?

[John_Doe]

One of the implicit justifications for the anti-age gap relationship taboo (even when it comes to legal adults) seems to be the assumption that an adult attraction to significantly younger people is deviant, that men who are attracted to significantly younger women or girls are abnormal and their attraction is the result of a moral failing rather than biology (in the same way that you could only enjoy torturing someone if you devalued their happiness or wanted them to suffer, your physical attraction to people; or wanting emotional intimacy with them in the context of that, is assumed to indicate something about your values. This can play out in other ways, if someone is attracted to serial killers people might have the sense that it's because they lack sympathy for their victims or condone their behavior and not because their bodies are amoral and are, in a sense, trying to get them to reproduce through manipulating them with sexual attraction regardless of what they would want to instinctively want upon reflection). I've repeated this point very often but you could accept that most men are going to be attracted to girls/women of reproductive age (let's say around 15-39 since menstruation is considered delayed if it hasn't occurred by 15 and menopause is considered premature if it occurs before 40. At 40 around 1% of women have undergone menopause and at 15, around 98% of healthy girls have had their first period) since men's bodies are biologically adapted to fertilize egg cells (regardless of subjective sexual preference, so this applies to the bodies of gay men, asexual men, men who are true pedophiles and all men who have a preference for anyone other than human females who appear to be fertile, or even for orgasm through something other than vaginal intercourse. The whole point of sperm production is to fertilize egg cells and a man cannot do that with either post-menopausal women or girls who aren't yet capable of ovulating); being adapted to fertilize egg cells is what makes males males, but still argue that it is wrong for them to act on that instinct; that a moral man will suppress his natural urges (in terms of real-life behavior, at least, if not fantasy) but that doesn't seem to satisfy most people who are against AMSC on principle. I have to assume that downplaying how unavoidable an attraction to minors is for normal men, the majority of men, helps to solidify that the attraction is unnatural and by extension immoral and that older men who instinctively want to be with young girls or women are bad faith actors who would not have those desires if they were decent people. I don't think that being natural implies that something is good or morally permissible but other people might, and it might be harder for them to condemn adult-minor relationships if they're seen as perfectly natural (even if most men really did lose their preference for young women when they reached a certain age, a preference for post-menopausal women; or even women who are older than 25 when female fertility gradually begins to decline, would still be maladaptive).

To add on to this, I've been wondering lately if the spirit of normative gender egalitarianism; which I support, has biased most people against some of the natural differences between men and women and if that has something to do with why men are expected to prefer the women in their own age group throughout their lifespan and that's treated as 'normal' or 'natural' rather than as a cultural or moral ideal (I vaguely remember some study about dating that showed most female respondents as preferring the men in their age group, maybe a couple of years older, but the men's preference for women in their early 20s tended to remain fixed even as they aged. You'll sometimes hear young women say that they're not really into middle-aged men but they assume that when they're middle-aged themselves their preferences will adapt to what's available to them, and maybe commonality is generally more important to women, but I wonder if men are less likely to adapt in that way. I'm curious about how many middle-aged people who might love their spouse and value their companionship have a strong preference for younger people that they just don't self-report). I'm under no delusion about the fact that the ideal partner for most young women is a relatively young man (that's what I would expect considering that male sperm quality begins to decline at 35, even though I could easily see a majority of women viewing men/boys in their early 20s or teens as ideal). This is an ugly thing to say, and I wouldn't want to in some settings for fear of hurting certain people, but when women hit menopause their bodies become asexual; they are no longer physiologically wired to reproduce, they are like prepubescent girls in that regard except that prepubescent girls will be able to reproduce in future. Unlike women, men (or male bodies, precisely) normally remain sexual until death; if your body has a menstrual cycle or produces sperm it's trying to get you to reproduce. Men are treated as though they are supposed to outgrow or mature beyond the actual biological function of their maleness, that part of their lives (sexual access to women whom they can actually reproduce with, and especially the women whom they are most likely to have a healthy baby with; if Tanner stage 5 is considered delayed in human females if it hasn't occurred by 17 then I would say that's the 17-24-year-old demographic of women. The irony is that a lot of people who oppose older man-younger woman relationships but aren't necessarily as strict or rigid about it as some other people are draw the line at the age group that it makes the most sense, on paper, for men to prefer) is over with when they reach a certain age. Again, you could be honest about the fact that male bodies are biologically designed to fertilize egg cells without drawing morality from it (and being a man is not about being strong, confident, aggressive or logical, it's not determined by how tall and muscular you are, it's not about being a protector and provider or taking responsibility for your children or community at large, it's about having a body that is designed for sex with human females whom you can reproduce with. Being adapted to fertilize egg cells doesn't just correlate with being male like being tall or more predisposed to violence does, it's what makes a male a male).

I think that's why people who are anti-AMSC on principle downplay how common adult attraction to minors is. With people who support 'the MAP cause,' whatever that is exactly, I suspect that some people like the idea of belonging to a distinct marginalized group that most people can't relate to. I'm convinced that everyone who isn't 'asexual' is a MAP unless maybe we're defining a 'MAP' as someone who prefers minors, rather than someone who is just attracted to them.

[rpgvx]

In addition, I remember asking someone how common hebephilia is, they said its in between transgenderism and homosexuality in commonness (roughly 0.3% of men are transgender and 2% are homosexual). I showed them this meta analysis https://www.ipce.info/sites/ipce.info/f ... _fifth.pdf which estimated that roughly 3% of men are pedophiles 16% are hebephiles based on phallometric studies, and he said he doubted it.

For phallometric tests to not be considered very accurate, this is indeed in the ballpark of what I expect. Pedophilia is relatively uncommon, attraction to older teenagers is very common, so hebephilia has to be somewhere in between.

You are however lumping pedophilia and hebephilia together, inflating the numbers and potentially making it more provocative. But idk, if you presented a sum of studies, I don't understand what you mean people disagreed with, surely not the math. You're presenting it as if you said 5 + 5 = 10 and they disagreed and said it was lower.

[pedo233]

In addition, I remember asking someone how common hebephilia is, they said its in between transgenderism and homosexuality in commonness (roughly 0.3% of men are transgender and 2% are homosexual). I showed them this meta analysis https://www.ipce.info/sites/ipce.info/f ... _fifth.pdf which estimated that roughly 3% of men are pedophiles 16% are hebephiles based on phallometric studies, and he said he doubted it.

For phallometric tests to not be considered very accurate, this is indeed in the ballpark of what I expect. Pedophilia is relatively uncommon, attraction to older teenagers is very common, so hebephilia has to be somewhere in between.

You are however lumping pedophilia and hebephilia together, inflating the numbers and potentially making it more provocative. But idk, if you presented a sum of studies, I don't understand what you mean people disagreed with, surely not the math. You're presenting it as if you said 5 + 5 = 10 and they disagreed and said it was lower.

Its used on sex offenders so i think its pretty accurate, around 40-50% of child sex offenders whose victims are below 12 are equally or more aroused by prepubescent children than by adults, and 20-33% of normal men are equally or more aroused by prepubescent children than by adults, most of these men are probably hebephiles and a smaller percentage are pedophiles.

[rpgvx]

Its used on sex offenders so i think its pretty accurate, around 40-50% of child sex offenders whose victims are below 12 are equally or more aroused by prepubescent children than by adults, and 20-33% of normal men are equally or more aroused by prepubescent children than by adults, most of these men are probably hebephiles and a smaller percentage are pedophiles.

If you include the saying that "this meta-analysis of 7 studies shows..." then I don't see what they would disagree with. In that case it's not a statement of opinion, just showcasing a paper's findings, which if they disagree with, they can check the paper.

[NeverLoseKibou]

I think the true figure is higher, it comes down to definitions.

I don't believe pedosexuality is a real sexuality, any more than being attracted to Asian women or tall women or blond's is a sexuality.
We don't choose who we are attracted to, attraction is a chemical response we have no control over. What triggers that response varies between people and it isn't static, it changes, but there are always some things more likely to trigger a reaction for some people. Gender for example, a straight person is someone who is more likely to be triggered by the opposite sex. Not always, I think everyone has the potential to be triggered by the same gender, that often manifests in single sex communities where the chemistry adapts.

I think everyone is very capable of being triggered by a young person, a pedophile is just someone who is more likely to be triggered by a young person. Even then it isn't just gender and age in combination, it's other factors such as race, hair color, physical, mental and emotional characteristics as well as familiarity. You could be someone and feel no initial reaction, but over days, weeks, months, years, have a trigger form.

I would go as far as to say that I believe that everyone has had a sexual reaction towards a child at some point in their life, even if they didn't recognize it as such. I've read of breast feeding mothers becoming sexually aroused when feeding, there's a reason legal teen porn is so popular and why sex shops sell schoolgirl uniforms.

Chemistry and morality are separate things.as well. People joke about the church being full or molesters, I don't think that's a fair characterization. The church is full of clergy abstaining from sex, that builds frustration, that messages that chemical trigger, that makes the alter boy look more attractive then he otherwise would. I think most clergy are very moral people that are doing unnatural things to their body (abstaining from sex) that causes the chemical trigger to thrash about looking for something to latch onto.

So I think everybody experiences sexual attraction towards children at some point, many don't recognise it, those that do and have it become a prominent part of their trigger are pedophiles/maps. Not immoral in any way and not unusual, just normal people.