Conversations on AMSC Between a MAP and a Victim of Child Sexual Abuse

[WavesInEternity]

I have recently been discussing at length the pro-legalization perspective on AMSC with a woman, namely my mother, who was repeatedly sexually assaulted as a child, starting at an extremely young age. It left her with a permanently inhibited sexual response and many other long-term symptoms associated with rape trauma syndrome. The two of us constitute a very rare instance where a person who experienced such criminal and immoral acts will talk about the issue of AMSC with a pro-legalization MAP in a climate of mutual respect (although emotions do sometimes run high on both sides, and we regularly have to cut short the discussion to cool off).

She told me, rightly so in my view, that us MAPs should talk to victims of childhood sexual abuse. I replied that I believe most of us would be very open to that, given the associated prospect of better understanding how to avoid harming the children we love, if it were not for the fact that those people usually are socially conditioned to hate us with a burning passion and want to see us jailed or worse. But, after all, I am indeed speaking to her, not only to explain my point of view, but just as much to understand her lived experience and her thoughts.

Perhaps her greatest worries regarding AMSC pertain to the power discrepancy between the adult and the child, and that the extreme level of self-interest she argues (again correctly in my opinion) is associated with sexual desire risks leading to behaviour that disregards or misrepresents the interests of the child so as the serve the adult's.

How is that last problem not also relevant to sex between adults, I ask? Her answer is that an additional crucial issue coming into play here is how children tn the current world, especially little girls, aren't taught to say "no" to physical contact initiated by adults, especially from their family. She didn't say "no" when she was sexually assaulted by her father and uncles: that was just how things were. She would even initiate sexual contact because she knew it was expected of her, and her 3/4/5/6/7/8-year-old self understood that people she loved and depended on wanted it. Pro-legalization as I might now be, I fully agree that didn't make it right.

The fact that so many women of her generation went through such harrowing experiences is probably one of the main reasons why the law is what it is today.

She recounts a case where a female family member was molested as an 11-year-old by a narcissistic but otherwise "well-intentioned" uncle who thought of himself as a "good lover" and wanted to initiate her to sexual intimacy. When he fondled and masturbated her to orgasm, she didn't say "no" once. Not because she was enjoying herself, but because: 1) she didn't want to disappoint a man whom she considered her friend; 2) she was f*cking terrorized by this grown man doing something to her she didn't fully comprehend.

When he asked if she was enjoying it (and he did, more than once!), she even said "yes". She lied because she instinctively knew it was the answer he wanted to hear.

The fact is, that woman (my beloved aunt) is a lesbian, and was already aware of it by that age. She hated the experience and felt violated. She regrets that her first sexual experience wasn't with a girl she liked, on her own terms.

I respond that I do not generally condone AMSC between close family members where the adult is in a position of power and the child depends on the adult in some way. That constitutes abuse of power, in a way similar to how an employer might condition career advancement upon the provision of sexual favours. Both are wrong.

She asserts that, in effect, any adult is in a position of power over a child. I think there is considerable merit to this view.

I reply that, in AMSC, the child's affirmative consent should be understood as especially important (in the same way as feminists argue that this is the case for women in patriarchal societies), and pro-legalization MAPs are generally aware of those pitfalls. Most MAPs understand that a child is less likely to reject an adult's advances, and that these advances themselves are more likely to be misunderstood or uncomfortable to the child. However, if we were to restrict AMSC to instances where the child takes the initiative (this would be fairly easy to achieve with a purpose-built dating website), that could essentially solve the problem.

Relationships between adults may occur despite a power imbalance; few would argue that the only acceptable relationships are ones where both partners are perfectly equal. Instead of a blanket prohibition, wouldn't it be better to include additional legal protections for the child in intimate child-adult relationships, taking into account their unique nature and risks?

Another of my mother's central arguments is that sexual contact with adults essentially overrides a child's "natural" sexual development, making it proceed faster than it should, because an adult cannot fully understand what it is like to know nothing at all of such matters.

I retort that I also was once "innocent" in precisely that way, and I do remember that time. I also keenly remember the loss of that "innocence".

I started looking at Internet porn when I was 10 (I had been masturbating for about two years by then, and had first experienced clear sexual desire towards a girl, a cousin of my own age, at 9). My mother, when she found out, was convinced that I had been sexually abused myself for having those thoughts, or that I had stumbled across porn inadvertently and it had "perverted" me, or perhaps that my father had been looking at it carelessly and I caught a glance.

None of those scenarios were true.

Nobody had initially even told me that Internet porn was a thing. I inferred the likelihood of its existence on my own.

I was horny, I was curious, and I knew what I wanted, although I did not yet have the precise words for it. At first, I clumsily looked up the likes of "sex" (not very creative, I know, but one must start somewhere) and "vagina penetration", but within a few months, I had already progressed to roughly "cute teen girl masturbates", had found out that my tastes (in adult women) were very selective, and had chanced upon erotic manga. By the age of 12, again through the deliberate search for material that turned me on, I had discovered lolicon, which resonated perfectly with my desires but raised many morally difficult questions in my mind.

In my mid-teens, I desired a 7-year-old distant cousin (quite a bit younger than my usual age-of-attraction) more than I have ever desired any other girl except two. Oh so maddeningly adorable—and arousing—was she with her doll-like looks: a slender body shaped much like a preteen girl's but in miniature, curly dark blonde hair, lightly tanned skin, subtle freckles on her cheeks, large brown eyes filled with curiosity and kindness... How I longed to see her naked and caress every inch of her body. She was very cuddly with me; I think she noticed how there was something different about the way I looked at her and touched her with such profound and unusual affection. Holding her on my lap felt electric, and I have extremely fond memories of it. Masturbating to lolicon helped me a lot to feel less sexually frustrated in her presence.

I never, ever would have touched her in a sexual way (I shall leave "ideal world" scenarios to my wet dreams and academic discussions). However, if pornography had not existed, or had been strictly kept away from me as I was under 18... let me just say I understand why most men in my extended family resorted to sexually assaulting girls.

I must concede that, as a male, my early sexual development was necessarily different from that of girls. This observation implies that pederasts are in somewhat of a privileged position to understand their young partners, which is perhaps one reason among many why studies tend to show that pederastic sexual relationships are much less likely to cause harm than those between man and girl-child. I am, unfortunately, exclusively heterosexual.

Still, I counter that there is much more variety to be found between individuals of the same sex than the average difference we observe between the two sexes. The fact is that many boys experience their sexual awakening (an ambiguous expression in and of itself, prone to propagating the damaging myth that children are not sexual) in a way that resembles more that of girls (more gradual, softer in intensity, more romance-focused), and many girls in a way that resembles more that of boys (more abrupt, more overwhelming, more genitals-focused).

Furthermore, a loving partner can adjust his or her behaviour to such differences between the sexes, at any age, provided he or she makes a genuine effort to understand them. If anything, a truly loving adult man is probably better capable of adjusting his behaviour to the particular characteristics of a girl's nascent "adult" sexuality than a boy her own age.

If we are to respect children's "natural" sexual development, doesn't that also mean we shouldn't deny or suppress their sexual desires? I certainly felt that my own were being denied and suppressed throughout much of my childhood.

To be continued...

[Fragment]

Her answer is that an additional crucial issue coming into play here is how children tn the current world, especially little girls, aren't taught to say "no" to physical contact initiated by adults, especially from their family.

Proper consent, relationship and sex education would do so much more to stop abuse than stricter laws.

My mother's first time experiencing penetration was at 12 with a peer. She had told him before "I don't want to have sex", but they had done non-penetrative things. One day the mood took him and she didn't say "no". After that she gave up because, as he put it "it doesn't even matter because you're not a virgin any more".

What happened to my mother was what used to be called "grey rape". I think proper education could've helped my mother say "no" in a clear, firm way that would've left no guilt regarding her role if he had continued.

Pro-reform doesn't advocate for a world where adults can do what they like with children. It advocates for a world where children can consent, if they want to.

[WavesInEternity]

Proper consent, relationship and sex education would do so much more to stop abuse than stricter laws.
[...]
Pro-reform doesn't advocate for a world where adults can do what they like with children. It advocates for a world where children can consent, if they want to.

Remarkably given her past, my mother is slowly getting around to that view. She has always been open to radical social change and children's rights, e.g. anti-school arguments. What's most difficult for her is to imagine that it might be at all possible for children, including before puberty, to naturally show an interest in sexuality. Likely because sex was forced upon her from a very young age, that thought seems to break her brain.

I remember the first time I told her about anthropological studies of 20th century hippie communes where the parents had sex openly, resulting in most children having coitus with each other by age 8. Her initial reaction was one of utter shock: kids don't want to see that! That's where you're wrong, mum... most kids are very curious about sex if we give them the chance.

I've actually asked her for her advice for the MAP movement and regarding legal reform. She's busy now, but promised to eventually come back to me.

[Grunko]

What about if it was the other way round- the adult is the victim and the teenager is the predator. The adult gets blackmailed and pressured by teenagers.

There is a news story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic ... ttack.html

[WavesInEternity]

What about if it was the other way round- the adult is the victim and the teenager is the predator.

She definitely knows that such cases exist. By now, I've gotten her to agree that it'd be preferable for the age of consent to be lowered to 12 with additional protections and 16 or 18 unrestricted, so our conversations tend to focus entirely on cases (like hers) where the child is under 12. The overwhelming majority of such cases involve little girls, with the aggressor being part of the family or a close acquaintance. Most of those crimes are committed by men who are not preferentially MAPs, but are instead opportunistic and situational offenders.

I'm not aware of any sexual assault committed upon an adult by a boy under 12, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was one or several. One thing I've learned from studying social science is that whenever humans are concerned, there always seem to be exceptions. We must not let them blind us to overwhelming trends (this is one of the most common mistakes made by contemporary post-modern thinkers).

[Bookshelf]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic ... ttack.html

Think it's worth drawing attention to the language used in this.
"A total of seven young men, ages 14 to 17"
All of a sudden a 14 year old is labelled a young man rather than a child. Rather bizarre that whether you're officially a capable young man or a defenseless child is dependent on the room you're in.