Do you think loli is a good or bad thing for the map community

[WavesInEternity]

I don't even know what loli is exactly so it's probably NOT good.

What kind of strange non sequitur is that? If you don't know about it, then it's probably bad?! That's like saying that because you don't know about a particular dish, it's likely to taste bad.

Anyway, I hope you're joking when you say you don't know what lolicon/shotacon is. In the off-chance you're serious and have been living under a rock: it's pornographic manga (or, sometimes, anime) involving imaginary children or childlike characters. Legalizing it, as with all erotic fiction, is among Mu's core principles.

Some lolicon works are absolutely amazing. I've personally paid for the fan translation of a couple. I won't mention any specific artists or titles because I don't know if it's against the rules of this board.

[Artaxerxes II]

Good insofar that it can help normalise child sexuality. And bad in that, as seen in American anime fandoms, the end result are "ironic lolicons" (i.e., pedophobic lolicon enjoyers) whose denial of their sexuality causes them to be even more zealous antis than the anti-lolicon ones as the acceptance of lolicon but not PIM means they're only paths o salvage themselves from their own contradictions is by doxxing and harming MAPs, or express the desire to do so.

To be honest, that's more of a consequence of lolicon being the only PIM being exempt from general CP laws (like in most of the USA) than lolicon consumption itself.

[White sea Snow Elf]

I don't know what the situation is in other places, but I know that in Asia, some people have begun to call for a crackdown on lolicon, including other otaku, because in their eyes, lolicon = pedophile.
I think it's only a matter of time before lolicon faces massive persecution like MAP did.

[WavesInEternity]

I think it's only a matter of time before lolicon faces massive persecution like MAP did.

The persecution is nothing new. Even in Japan, ~20 years ago, CEDAW was already calling for a ban on lolicon and other material that supposedly "promotes violence against women". (There are some of us who remember and were already fighting the good fight back then...) Fortunately, Japan has recently rejected this UN interference once again, despite ever more pressure for such so-called "virtual child pornography" to be outlawed.

[Aspire6]

The persecution is nothing new. Even in Japan, ~20 years ago, CEDAW was already calling for a ban on lolicon and other material that supposedly "promotes violence against women". (There are some of us who remember and were already fighting the good fight back then...) Fortunately, Japan has recently rejected this UN interference once again, despite ever more pressure for such so-called "virtual child pornography" to be outlawed.

I believe that people who wish to outlaw purely fictional material are motivated by a personal disgust-factor. They wish to impose laws on those for things they find disgusting, even though they are harmless. Personal freedoms should not end where a personal disgust begins. This is also why I am heavily against the idea of banning child-love dolls.

I dislike the argument that MAPs "need-it" to not offend. I am not saying it can't apply to someone, but for some it really helps mentally. If that applies to you, no judgement towards you from me, but I'd rather say that I would find it really frustrating and unfair if I am legally unable to harmlessly/safely feel sexually satisfied myself, considering how those with teleiophilia ("normal" attractions) often take for granted how accessible adult-material is.

[WavesInEternity]

I believe that people who wish to outlaw purely fictional material are motivated by a personal disgust-factor. They wish to impose laws on those for things they find disgusting, even though they are harmless. Personal freedoms should not end where a personal disgust begins. This is also why I am heavily against the idea of banning child-love dolls.

As far as I can see, and from what I've gathered researching CSA-prevention & women's groups and interacting with their members, it's a blend of disgust/revulsion and genuine fear. The "predator" or "molester" stereotype is so deeply ingrained in the collective imagination that they really do believe MAPs are a serious threat to children, and having access to lolicon/shotacon risks turning people into "molesters" (or being used in "grooming"). It "gives people ideas they wouldn't have had otherwise", to paraphrase my mother before I managed to dispel her fears (which took many, many years). Remember the hysteria surrounding pederasts making boys gay.

100% agree with respect to child-love dolls. For the record, I've seen what some Japanese companies are doing nowadays and it's so awesome that I'd actually want one myself.

I dislike the argument that MAPs "need-it" to not offend. I am not saying it can't apply to someone, but for some it really helps mentally. If that applies to you, no judgement towards you from me, but I'd rather say that I would find it really frustrating and unfair if I am legally unable to harmlessly/safely feel sexually satisfied myself, considering how those with teleiophilia ("normal" attractions) often take for granted how accessible adult-material is.

In my personal case: it's not that I need it to not offend, it's that I need it to have any semblance of mental health while not offending (and being celibate, as I'm non-exclusive, although only barely). The absence of any sexual outlet can be maddening, and yes, it can give me some "sexually predatory" thoughts, although I have no doubt I'd never act upon them.

Milton Diamond's famous research has shown that the availability of pornography, including PIM, is correlated with a decrease in sexual assault and most "contact" sexual crimes, even after accounting for confounding variables. This has been true across all cultures where it's been studied.

[Aspire6]

As far as I can see, and from what I've gathered researching CSA-prevention & women's groups and interacting with their members, it's a blend of disgust/revulsion and genuine fear. The "predator" or "molester" stereotype is so deeply ingrained in the collective imagination that they really do believe MAPs are a serious threat to children, and having access to lolicon/shotacon risks turning people into "molesters" (or being used in "grooming").

I often see the argument that fiction, like lolicon, is used to "groom" minors. I do not see how banning fiction would stop abusers from grooming with any sort of material. It is a shame that most, if not all, professional "help" basically wants you to entirely suppress your attractions/sexuality. Sure, that won't cause someone to struggle even more mentally and medicate up for the rest of their lives rather than provide them with a safe outlet that lets them feel satisfied and themselves.

Though, from an ethical standpoint, they see the attractions as something to be rid of.

100% agree with respect to child-love dolls. For the record, I've seen what some Japanese companies are doing nowadays and it's so awesome that I'd actually want one myself.

Would love to get one myself, they are legal where I am and I just need to set aside money for it. They are so expensive, but as are full-sized adult dolls.

In my personal case: it's not that I need it to not offend, it's that I need it to have any semblance of mental health while not offending (and being celibate, as I'm non-exclusive, although only barely). The absence of any sexual outlet can be maddening, and yes, it can give me some "sexually predatory" thoughts, although I have no doubt I'd never act upon them.

That's the same case for me. My moral compass would prevent me from doing anything, I cannot ever bring myself to consider doing such a thing. Fantasizing works for me too, just I don't need fiction to not offend, it's just without it I'm a mess mentally.

Milton Diamond's famous research has shown that the availability on pornography, including PIM, is correlated with a decrease in sexual assault and most "contact" sexual crimes, even after accounting for confounding variables. This has been true across all cultures where it's been studied.

I can't recall the country, but I know when some place made pornography legal they didn't ban any kind of PIM (real included) for a period of time, but noticeably the child abuse rates took a sharp drop during that period. The idea is interesting, for sure. May re-edit this later if I can find it.

[WavesInEternity]

I can't recall the country, but I know when some place made pornography legal they didn't ban any kind of PIM (real included) for a period of time, but noticeably the child abuse rates took a sharp drop during that period. The idea is interesting, for sure. May re-edit this later if I can find it.

The country in question was Denmark, where all pornography was legal between 1969 and 1980, and the Color Climax Corporation produced legal for-profit pornography involving girls between 7 and 11:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Po ... in_Denmark

Evidence of the impact on CSA (lower prevalence): https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 111326.htm

[Xuxa Nuit]

I don't even know what loli is exactly so it's probably NOT good.

What kind of strange non sequitur is that? If you don't know about it, then it's probably bad?! That's like saying that because you don't know about a particular dish, it's likely to taste bad.

No, I'm just someone who always constantly gravitates toward goodness. free will or cosmic law i don't know which.
I'm abnormal.
Why do you think I haunt Mu?
I'm gravitating toward goodness.
see how that works?
i've always just naturally instinctively emulated good people. or, perhaps i should say not-so-bad people.
good people would reciprocate my affection and sincerity.

[Fragment]

One “downside” to things like loli is its upside. It provides an outlet.

Having a legal outlet stops some people from feeling as persecuted. It can sap their motivation to get involved in activism. If we didn’t have the internet and we were involved in offline communities like PIE and NAMBLA how different would MAP politics look like today? Even if the laws were just as strict as they are now we’d be seeing more of our brothers and sisters, people we know and care about, being arrested before our eyes.

Honestly, that’s why I want people to give a shit about my legal troubles. I want them to care about me and by extension, care about injustice.

Personalizing these things beyond the abstract helps a lot. Unfortunately loli and shota can dampen that (although ultimately I support them and obviously believe all fiction should be 100% unreservedly legal).