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Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:23 am
by Artaxerxes II
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:20 am Does anyone have a source for positive experiences that is neutral and unbiased? I don't trust pedophile sources to be reliable - meaning neither the websites that compile positive accounts nor the testimony posted by self-proclaimed pedophiles. There's a conflict of interest there.

Surely there must be youtube videos, posts and comments on random (non-pedophile related) forums talking about positive experiences. I haven't been able to find much if any.

I would like to see a source that comes from non-pedophiles, preferably a heterosexual who had an experience with an older adult of the same sex during childhood/adolescence, or a homosexual that had an experience with an adult of the opposite sex. The reason I ask for that is because if the adult was the gender they were attracted to, the person might probably be looking back at the experience through the lens of their own sexuality (just like the pedophile). In other words their attraction might make them remember it as more positive than it actually was. I just want to keep things as objective and unbiased as possible.

Thanks
I don't see the conflict of interest as being inherently invalidating here. Sources focused on MAP issues may have unique expertise that general or "neutral" sources lack, simply because they’re dedicated to researching and understanding the complexities of these topics. This depth can lead to more accurate, nuanced information rather than skewed or "conflicted" data. And besides, no matter where you look at biases exist in every source, what's important is if the sources actively counter that bias via rigorous methodology and peer review. Plus, "neutral" and "unbiased" doesn't always translate to "objectivity".

But to satisfy your request, here are some testimonies compiled by antis, MAP allies, former AAMs, and reputable institutions:

https://fstube.net/w/bR4BUajkgmoyJcCBeWRAiT
https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/cases
https://fstube.net/w/c2kvyEyUXSe5DwRn33vgUS
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Accounts_and_Testimonies

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:41 pm
by stropa
Your links don't satisfy my request. Those are pro-pedophile resources. I don't care about your excuses. I want testimonies presented by non-pedophiles posted on non-pedophile related websites. If these experiences are more positive than they are negative then you shouldn't have an issue doing that.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:27 pm
by NotTrueToMyself
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:41 pm Your links don't satisfy my request. Those are pro-pedophile resources. I don't care about your excuses. I want testimonies presented by non-pedophiles posted on non-pedophile related websites. If these experiences are more positive than they are negative then you shouldn't have an issue doing that.
You will have a hard time finding that. Even peer reviewed papers find a world of difficulty in publishing anything pro-MAP. It’s like asking to find positive sexual information about LGTBQ+ from non LGBTQ+ in the 40s.

The world believes that all MAPs are sexually deviant, insatiable rapists that are out to use and abuse children. Anything that remotely supports our cause is immediately scrubbed from the majority of locations.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:33 pm
by Artaxerxes II
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 3:41 pm Your links don't satisfy my request. Those are pro-pedophile resources. I don't care about your excuses. I want testimonies presented by non-pedophiles posted on non-pedophile related websites. If these experiences are more positive than they are negative then you shouldn't have an issue doing that.
I understand that you’d prefer non-LGBTQ+ sources to ensure there’s no perceived bias.

However, it’s also true that organizations focused on MAP-AAM experiences often have specific expertise that allows them to document these stories in a way that general sources might miss. Just as we rely on specialists in other fields for reliable insights, these organizations provide important context that adds to, rather than detracts from, understanding.

That said, there are testimonies from allies, such as family members or close friends of minor-attracted people, who share positive firsthand experiences. Additionally, several neutral studies from health organizations and universities show life outcomes among minor-attracted people and minor-attracted who have supportive relationships and community acceptance that are positive, far from the negatives that you expect. I’d be happy to share those sources as well, as they can provide a well-rounded view from both inside and outside the community.

Ultimately, if we reject sources solely because they’re focused on MAP-AAM issues, we risk missing well-documented experiences and valuable insights. It’s similar to dismissing expert sources in other fields, where specialized focus doesn’t imply bias but rather an informed perspective. Evaluating evidence based on content and rigor can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of MAP and AAM experiences.

I can also provide data from large-scale studies conducted by public health organizations and universities that examine MAP and AAM well-being, which align with many positive experiences. These sources don’t have specific advocacy goals but still reflect that MAP and AAM individuals often experience improved quality of life and well-being in supportive environments. This might add another layer to the conversation that respects both perspectives.

Here are some of the sources in question. Note that these aren't from pro-pedophile organisations, but rather from pedophobes, peer-reviewed research by those critical of MAP rights, and law enforcement:

https://fstube.net/w/bR4BUajkgmoyJcCBeWRAiT
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29096161/
https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.1007/s10508-020-01721-y
https://michaelbaurmann.info/

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:10 pm
by stropa
NotTrueToMyself wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:27 pm You will have a hard time finding that.
Well at least you can admit it.
It’s like asking to find positive sexual information about LGTBQ+ from non LGBTQ+ in the 40s.
I think you might be exaggerating just a little bit.
Anything that remotely supports our cause is immediately scrubbed from the majority of locations.
Not true. If you're a pedophile spouting pro-child sex rhetoric, then you will probably get censored. But if you're a regular person wanting to talk about their past experience then nothing is going to happen. Even if people disagree you won't get censored as long as you aren't advocating for anything.

Even some of the nonsense from the Amos Yee era is still able to be found online.

There are tons of videos of age gap couples on old talk shows like Maury and Dr. Phil, where one is 16 and the other in their 30s. The younger person is defending the relationship but it doesn't get taken down. So there's no reason why people can't just record a video telling a story and post it. There should be tons of archives of these kinds of things.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:22 pm
by stropa
Artaxerxes II wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 4:33 pm However, it’s also true that organizations focused on MAP-AAM experiences often have specific expertise that allows them to document these stories in a way that general sources might miss. Just as we rely on specialists in other fields for reliable insights, these organizations provide important context that adds to, rather than detracts from, understanding.
What exactly qualifies these organizations as experts? In what way are they reputable? Are they well established and highly regarded in their field?
That said, there are testimonies from allies, such as family members or close friends of minor-attracted people, who share positive firsthand experiences.
This is what I am asking for. Personal experiences, not studies using anonymous participants. Not saying I don't believe the studies but that's just not what I'm asking for.
Ultimately, if we reject sources solely because they’re focused on MAP-AAM issues, we risk missing well-documented experiences and valuable insights. It’s similar to dismissing expert sources in other fields, where specialized focus doesn’t imply bias but rather an informed perspective. Evaluating evidence based on content and rigor can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of MAP and AAM experiences.
I am not convinced that these sources come from reliable and non-biased places. So I will continue to reject them until proven otherwise.
Again, not asking for studies, just personal first hand accounts. And the age gap between the first couple from the first link is only 5 years and he's 16, not really what I'm looking for.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:38 pm
by Artaxerxes II
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:10 pm I think you might be exaggerating just a little bit.
Not really, given that the only non-gay people in the 1940s willing to research homosexuality without confirmation bias were themselves heavily sympathetic to gay rights activism, such as Alfred Kinsey. So yeah, by your own standards, if we were in the 1940s then any source showcasing homosexuality in a positive light would have to be dismissed since the vast majority of such evidence at that time came almost exclusively from activist groups.
There are tons of videos of age gap couples on old talk shows like Maury and Dr. Phil, where one is 16 and the other in their 30s. The younger person is defending the relationship but it doesn't get taken down. So there's no reason why people can't just record a video telling a story and post it. There should be tons of archives of these kinds of things.
There are if you look hard enough:
https://fstube.net/w/bR4BUajkgmoyJcCBeWRAiT
https://fstube.net/w/c2kvyEyUXSe5DwRn33vgUS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQv29AEocY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaDcVtphOew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goyO_fMlTfI
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FK5uWYyvTXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9EbXs_vjE0
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Accounts_and_Testimonies
https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/cases

The last two links use testimonies straight from the horse's mouth, as well as the plethora of secondary sources available. Suffice to say, with the current stigma even on legal age-gap relationships involving minors within or above their local age of consent, I doubt we'll see many coming forward, especially if they face consequences more dire than mere "criticism".

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:08 pm
by Artaxerxes II
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:22 pm What exactly qualifies these organizations as experts? In what way are they reputable? Are they well established and highly regarded in their field?
I am not convinced that these sources come from reliable and non-biased places. So I will continue to reject them until proven otherwise.
When we talk about expertise, we’re referring to organizations that rely on qualified researchers, psychologists, and social scientists with advanced degrees, often in collaboration with accredited universities or health institutions. Many of these organizations archive and cite peer-reviewed studies, and their findings are often cited by public health organizations and academia (such as in the case of B4U-Act and Consenting Juveniles). These are the same research standards applied across fields to ensure that studies are well-designed, reliable, and objective.

Good research practices, regardless of the topic, include controls against bias: rigorous peer review, transparent research methodologies, and replication of results across different studies. When MAP rights-focused organizations publish studies or testimonies, they often employ these same controls to ensure that the findings are representative and accurate, rather than one-sided. Peer review, in particular, ensures that other experts validate the findings before publication, which is a key measure of reliability.

For instance, the Consenting Juveniles project is perhaps one of the few platforms where minors who had relationships with adults can disclose their reality undisturbed. The project has been endorse by psychology experts such as Michael Bailey and Elaine Hatfield, as well as other prominent people like California state senator John Vasconcellos, who dedicated his career to bringing principles of psychology into play in politics. This level of esteem from neutral, reputable individuals of prestige is a testament to its credibility.

Ultimately, even if you’re skeptical about organizations with a MAP-AAM focus, it can be productive to review specific studies and data they provide. Evaluating evidence based on content, methodology, and replicability often leads to a clearer picture than relying on perceived affiliations. Reliable information stands up to scrutiny because of its quality, not just its origin.

You must understand that, because of societal stigma and, in many places, historical censorship, AAM individuals have often relied on advocacy organizations to document and preserve their stories. These groups fill an essential gap by providing a safe platform for adult-attracted minors and minor-attracted people to share personal experiences without fear of discrimination. Mainstream sources, on the other hand, often avoid delving into personal testimonies around sensitive topics, not because these stories are untrue, but because they haven’t focused on this type of narrative work, whether it's caused by prejudice or otherwise.

It’s also important to remember that MAP rights organizations prioritize sharing these stories to meet a need that other sources don’t address. The goal is to preserve personal experiences, which aren’t necessarily biased but reflect real, lived events. If these testimonies are well-documented, diverse, and consistent with larger patterns found in neutral studies, dismissing them solely because of where they’re published can mean overlooking important, authentic experiences.

There are also personal accounts from allies, such as parents or friends of former adult-attracted minors, and even public figures who’ve shared positive stories in more mainstream media outlets. These testimonies help show that positive adult-minor intimate/platonic/romantic experiences are widespread and valued beyond MAP rights circles. An example would be the story of George Takei, who often recounts his positive experience with a camp counsellor when he was 13/14 years old, but only within the context of LGBTQ+ advocacy rather than MAP advocacy.

Finally, I’d encourage us to look at the content of these testimonies themselves. Consistent stories from different people and contexts are valuable regardless of who documents them. If testimonies from MAP-AAM advocacy sites are detailed, diverse, and reflect common themes, this indicates their reliability and gives us a genuine window into people’s lives.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:40 pm
by stropa
Artaxerxes II wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:38 pm if we were in the 1940s then any source showcasing homosexuality in a positive light would have to be dismissed since the vast majority of such evidence at that time came almost exclusively from activist groups.
I'm dismissing them because I don't trust that they have done their due diligence enough to verify the people submitting their stories so they can rule out fake stories made up by pedophiles with a fantasy. They are incentivized to collect positive stories wherever they are, no matter what.

I'm asking for non-pedophile sources because it rules out that possibility enormously. This is for my own peace of mind. Though you seem to have unwavering faith in their trustworthiness for some strange reason.
You clearly don't understand what I'm asking for. I was just using Dr. Phil as an example of minors going against the narrative that aren't being censored. But from each of those Dr Phil links you provided, all of the minors were of adult age!

The link where the 15 year old is getting married, we don't know the age of the person shes marrying.

The only link you provided that matches what I'm looking for is the one from fstube with the woman talking to the camera. Though she demonstrates exactly what my concern was because her enthusiastic claim of it being "the best sex ever" makes me think shes not being completely rational. Is she looking back on it positively because it was objectively a positive relationship, or is she looking back on it positively soley because she finds the memory of the sex arousing? If she turned out to be a lesbian would she have the same positive feelings? Something to think about. But whatever, I'll take it.

So out of everything you could only find one person. I think you've proven my point here.
Suffice to say, with the current stigma even on legal age-gap relationships involving minors within or above their local age of consent, I doubt we'll see many coming forward, especially if they face consequences more dire than mere "criticism".
Sure keep telling yourself that. In the meanwhile nothing is stopping anyone, not even a minor, from anonymously posting a YouTube video with their personal details hidden, or an anonymous reddit post. But yeah, people are too scared. Okay.

Re: Can sexual experiences be positive?

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:57 pm
by Artaxerxes II
stropa wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:40 pm I'm dismissing them because I don't trust that they have done their due diligence enough to verify the people submitting their stories so they can rule out fake stories made up by pedophiles with a fantasy. They are incentivized to collect positive stories wherever they are, no matter what.

I'm asking for non-pedophile sources because it rules out that possibility enormously. This is for my own peace of mind. Though you seem to have unwavering faith in their trustworthiness for some strange reason.
But what evidence do you have that the testimonies that they collected are fake? You wanted the testimonies, I provided them. Read the last post that I made to see why I trust them. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the testimonies cited on Consenting Juveniles or Newgon are fake.
The only link you provided that matches what I'm looking for is the one from fstube with the woman talking to the camera. Though she demonstrates exactly what my concern was because her enthusiastic claim of it being "the best sex ever" makes me think shes not being completely rational. Is she looking back on it positively because it was objectively a positive relationship, or is she looking back on it positively soley because she finds the memory of the sex arousing. If she turned out to be a lesbian would she have the same positive feelings? Something to think about. But whatever, I'll take it.

So out of everything you could only find one person. I think you've proven my point here.
The only link you provided that matches what I'm looking for is the one from fstube with the woman talking to the camera. Though she demonstrates exactly what my concern was because her enthusiastic claim of it being "the best sex ever" makes me think shes not being completely rational. Is she looking back on it positively because it was objectively a positive relationship, or is she looking back on it positively soley because she finds the memory of the sex arousing. If she turned out to be a lesbian would she have the same positive feelings? Something to think about. But whatever, I'll take it.

So out of everything you could only find one person. I think you've proven my point here.
Now you're just being speculative here. But whatever, it seems you already made up your mind on it.
Sure keep telling yourself that. In the meanwhile nothing is stopping anyone, even a minor, from anonymously posting a YouTube video with their personal details hidden, or an anonymous reddit post. But yeah, people are too scared. Okay.
Because then people like you would either just dismiss it as fake or "coming form a pedophile source" (and thus can never be true), or gaslight the minor into thinking that the relationship was abusive all along, as it is the norm in current clinical practice:
https://www.businessinsider.nl/alanis-m ... ry-jagged/
Morissette says in the movie. "It took me years in therapy to even admit there had been any kind of victimization on my part. I would always say I was consenting, and then I'd be reminded like 'Hey, you were 15, you're not consenting at 15.' Now I'm like, 'Oh yeah, they're all pedophiles. It's all statutory rape."
I mean, if you don't trust sources cited by MAP rights organisation no matter how rigorous the evidence is, an anonymous testimony is unlikely to sway you anyway.