MAP Forum

I thank you for sharing all that!
It's very interesting to hear your perspective on NAMBLA, among others.
From what you say, it seems almost like NAMBLA was more like what VirPed is now.

i'm not at all acquainted with what VirPed (?) is up to, so can't comment. I'm thinking that perhaps NARSOL is stuck in this sort of thing, all for the uncritical love of "professionalism" and "reputability" which work to ultimately divide up our "diversity of tactics" and suppress those whom don't "Fit" into this un-democratic form of alleged "progress"!

TMKnight wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:36 pm Any group that is trying to make meaningful changes starts with having a well-financed organization. That one or more of its members has enough financial resources to weather the backless that he/she (hopefully a small group of them) would receive.

I vehemently disagree (at least for activism in the USA) (a little David Thorstad coming out in me!).

Do you KNOW what happens to centralized, formal organizations? They find themselves sued on the flimsiest pretenses, then are forced to fight (sometimes with the ACLU backing them, pro bono, and sometimes not) in long, drawn-out court battles DESIGNED TO wear down their resources and money! This happened to NAMBLA! And the ACLU backed them up the first time, but not the second time. ALL those whose names appeared on the masthead of the Bulletin were put thru TWO specious trials based on what an alleged member violently did to a kid.

(they never got me because i was homeless! But an activist friend of mine, Dennis B., lost his house trying to defend himself, for one.)

This sort of thing is CLASSIC "cointelpro" tactics (small case here to DISRESPECT that once illegal group). Anyone not familiar with this routine tactic used by the POLITICAL POLICE is setting themselves up to REPEAT FOLLY from history, and not move towards true progress, i feel! Unless you go into such with your EYES WIDE OPEN!! I.e. by closely STUDYING diverse literature around these issues!!

As a group we need to condemn certain actions that are often attributed to people like us like human trafficking, or if any of the conspiracy theories about adrenochrome is true, and once we establish a property etymology consensual and non-consensual. Condemn any act that does not fall within consent.

All great and good, but the bottom line is that we are up against PROPAGANDA that has Access to millions of people, while we may reach, what, 20,000 at best??? (Will anyone say how many unique visits come to this forum?)

What i'm getting at is that we need to keep with the "diversity of tactics" thing, de-centralized (not "all of our eggs in one basket"). And much harder to crush "in one fell-swoop". This is where people can learn from the anarchists. Or at least other groups under similar Jackboots. Or, how about the formula of the Gays: When the Mattachine Society got CRUCIAL help from the radical GAY LIBERATION FRONT in CONFRONTING key groups!!

Now, having said all of that, i'm willing to listen to other seasoned activists (academics have their powers but not ALL the power), as well as prisoners whom've survived long prison terms with the sanity somehow intact! (and THEN i'll take a "back seat", even!!)

The failure of these groups and any future one is not taking risks, coming out publically, and working together. With most of us already disinfracished, and the level of barbarism towards us is unreal. We need to curve this, and hold ground.

Oh, i get it, you think that by CURBING (not 'curving' but good try) approaches that are DIFFERENT from your own, that THAT will make all the difference, eh?? NAMBLA tried that for, what, at LEAST 30 years!! Before i's showed up and AFTER. Ringing their little bells to affect their limp protest, oh my. (Pardon me if i'm a little too "abrasive" towards folks, but it comes with the scare-itory (territory).) So did the Dutch and English groups. Where did that get them?

The truth is that the State and its minions STUDY US and "scientifically" stay steps ahead of us, within certain bounds. If you understand The System, you can identify approaches that OUT-FLANK even them, as i've personally experienced in following my creative intuition!! (You want to read about this sort of thing? Then read The Science of Coercion by Christopher Simpson. Or Jeremy Seabrook in the online academic journal Globalisation (with ICAAP). And then there's Saul Alinsky's organizing tactics in the heat of racism in the 1940s and on to the '60s. i'm sure there are many others, i.e. what you find at the website https://www.thirdworldtraveler.com)

In another thread, I ask the question How many of you? (https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=435) and the purpose of this. Is to see how many of you are willing to risk (...hopefully not it all) to bring more light to the public.

Anyone remember Amos Y.? He tried to do that. Next thing he knew, he was being hounded by 'hunters'. I have no idea where he is now, but wow, he was VERY articulate AND cute!! SO WHY NOT USE HIS VIDEOS AND THE OTHER ONES WE ALREADY HAVE to affect this work that you have in mind???? (And all the others whom have done this with varying ability over the last, what, 40 years!?)

Harlan wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 12:45 pm

Fragment wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:05 am

...They also failed, for the most part, to attract boys to their cause. While an occasional voice seconds NAMBLA's outrage over age-of-consent laws , the question is clear: Just where is the army of boys backing NAMBLA and fighting for the rights of teens to have sex with whomever they wish? The short answer is that there is no army...

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I'll tell you: EVERYONE got out-flanked. By Big Pharma with all of their reductions of young peoples' differences to "Disorders" like ADHD and Oppositional Defiant Disorder (and all the other labels posited, with huge funding, before). They got out-flanked by the Rollback (see Chomsky) of the Business Establishment.

In OTHER nations there were such armies of KIDS, tho nonviolent. Tho in Paraguay (or was it Uruguay?), I think it was, there was an armed group of kids and women who tried to DEFEND themselves violently as a LAST DITCH effort under huge duress. The nonviolent groups of kids were in places like Mexico, as PAN magazine reported (i think people can read it online) on one occasion; where kids marched up to where a particularly kind and generous foreigner (US citizen) was being held prisoner (likely due to US pressure, but i'm not sure), and sought to free him. He had crucially helped them organize an orphanage or something like that.

There was another such case in an Asian nation, reported in EIDOS Magazine, i think it was. In their letters' section.

Likewise, one can ask the question: Why was there no army of black slaves fighting against slavery and for the rights of blacks?

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Well, there WERE armies. Read The Black Scholar for that side of suppressed history. Or look up Robert Williams (?) on the subject. Or recall what that famous white guy tried to do at Harper's Ferry. John Brown. There were MANY tries to liberate slaves, via violence, sometimes hundreds strong. The Maroons are a heady example, as they took refuge in a huge southern (US) swamp and proceeded to join with the Seminole Nation in stopping the US army from killing all of them, for decades!!

And then there was the continual Underground Railroad!

In more recent years (early 20th century) with the Jim Crow fLaws, there were MANY attempts of community self-defense via guns. Some repelled the kkk and other mobs of easily-hyped-up whites, others got massacred (i.e. in Tulsa, Oklahoma).

Then there's the recent nugget i heard of where Blacks were ACTUALLY BEHIND how the coal miners and other 'rednecks' got started in their union actions! Without the Black folks, the mostly timid white folks NEVER would have even tried to unionize in the face of the feudal "company towns" of the South.

As for us? Like i keep repeating (repetition has its values!), WE'VE been TOOLED by our collective "Good Educations" SO WELL that all of these allegedly "Smart" guys REALLY seem to BELIEVE that the institutions that taught them will give them THE KEYS to undermining their "useful" little meta-Readiness war games of attacking relatively small groups in the population (Jeremy Seabrook is insightful here, in his "The Metamorphoses of Colonialism")!

All this so-called "Rationalism" is only good in privileged circles, NOT when those privileges are Taken Away, so that relatively weak groups like ours can Serve to Distract! Though, if they're PAIRED with "irrational" and "radical" types, they can manifest something, sometimes, as we saw the Gays do with the Mattachine and the GLF!

Can anyone challenge this???
==============================

Even after white men accepted the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment, it took many decades for blacks to start fight for their rights. And even the Declaration of human rights did not stop either racism or homophobia

I'm sorry but that's a damn lie. See above, or a misunderstanding on your part. They fought hard all along, but The System instituted, scientifically, all sorts of "out-flanking" roadblocks (just as it continues to do today), i.e. making it ILLEGAL for them to even learn to read, or even assemble! Etc. ad nauseum. But they persisted, nonetheless!!

Fragment wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:05 am

“...I have been trying to convince the NAMBLA people for years that they should argue for an age of 14 or 15, something that people could see as a little more reasonable,” says William A. Percy, a professor of history at UMass/Boston and the author of Pederasty and Pedagogy in Archaic Greece. “But they're a small group of inbred and fanatical ideologues. They only talk to each other. They won't listen to ideas of compromise.”...

AoC 12 as a compromise and accepting of youths sexuality and expanded autonomy as first step.

Hmm, i succinctly recall Tom R., a co-founder of the group, saying he wished they had taken such a position as Mr.Percy said. Or perhaps he was already influenced by Percy, by then? i don't know.

Wow, to say THAT emotional stuff, man, you sound like a Spook trying to drive a wedge or something! NAMBLA as fanatical ideologues? No, not at all, except perhaps in their settler/colonial privilege and "good educations" and their COLLECTIVE, PARALYZING (?) FEAR after experiencing raids so many times by the LIES and out-of-context HYPE of the feds and the cops and their media lapdogs ("par for the course", kids). And THEN the hired thugs.

Unless you mean (and i doubt it) to say that their fancy educations made them into "inbred" and "fanatical" intellectuals! (On that i could agree! The ARROGANCE of these people who got a fancy piece of paper from the Wizards of Oz!! Never ceases to amaze!)

More like, THEY would fire that emotionally potent oversimplification off at me!! And the other younger people whom didn't fit their narrow idea of what Smart people are like (i.e. Needing, first and foremost, hi-f'lutin PhDs!). You REALLY think they're going to just Give you all a "Seat At The" proverbial "Table"?

(Well, maybe if you can make a secret deal with Trump and company, re: Epstein Island, eh?)

Look, can you CITE a page number from that book you SEEM to be quoting? Or are you intentionally seeking to mislead??

And, anyway, AOC's of 14 and 15 were instituted in several First (or Second?) World nations. Canada had an AOC of 14 until the US Told them, in various ways, to change it. Several European nations also were able to have AOC's of such ages, and THEY ALL (?) got forcefully changed from Without. Lawrence Stanley, the prolific and "most dangerous man" (said an f.b.i. agent) actually wrote about it in his book Regarding Proposed Changes to Dutch Penal Code 240b, i think was the title. That's how i know!