Re: Pedologues
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:12 pm
by Strato
Strato wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2024 7:00 pm
Jim Burton wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2024 2:58 pm
I'm happy to publish content generated from Pedologues on the guest feed, as long as others are. Perhaps you should join our rocketchat, and we can work on a submission fairly easy there.
Sounds good. Give me a week to review the remaining four episodes (of the first five) and summarise content. I'll report back here once I am done.
My week is up. I have done a review the old-fashioned way by listening to the first five episodes and in parallel, summarised each topic discussed in every episode. There are between seven and eleven topic headers per episode, see below. The time-stamped topic summaries I have created amount to nearly 4500 words, maybe too much to reproduce here?
It should be noted the Pedologues dialogue is rather random on occasion and unrestrained, so I have mostly had to paraphrase and condense into manageable and coherent summaries to make any review we do easier.
1.1 Domain name set-up problems.
1.2 Pedologue rationale.
1.3 Perceptions of childlove.
1.4 Sex education.
1.5 Self-loathing.
1.6 Profit from discrimination.
1.7 Grooming versus teaching.
1.8 Cotton wool kids.
2.1 Homosexual versus paedophile.
2.2 Recommended literature.
2.3 Sex offender registries.
2.4 Sex offender discrimination.
2.5 Child pornography.
2.6 Peace versus aggression.
2.7 Pedologues as activism.
3.1 Failing education.
3.2 Keep children innocent.
3.3 Childhood sexual freedom.
3.4 Conflict of conscience.
3.5 Telling others.
3.6 MAPs denounce MAPs.
3.7 Historical discrimination.
3.8 Gays betray MAPs
3.9 Ignorance and prejudice.
3.10 MAP community diversity.
4.1 Boylove.net moderation.
4.2 Story of Rebellee.
4.3 Being a boylover.
4.4 Choosing one's sexuality.
4.5 Paedophobia.
4.6 Normalising paedophilia.
4.7 Rebellee's boylove genesis.
4.8 Childhood guilt.
4.9 Discovering porn.
4.10 Molestation versus boylove.
4.11 Age of consent.
5.1 Categorising antis.
5.2 Consent law validity.
5.3 Over-protected child.
5.4 Creationism versus evolution.
5.5 Single-parent families.
5.6 Boylover's raison d'être.
5.7 Jessie's abuse story.
5.8 Boylove, paedosexuality, paederasty.
5.9 Explaining boylove to straights.
5.10 Enlightening the masses.
Comments welcome.
Re: Pedologues
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:07 am
by Strato
In the absence of any further comment, I may as well append the Pedologue (episode 1 through 5) dialogue summaries here. If there is no appetite for more of the same regarding subsequent episodes, I will stop at this point. As before, feel free to comment.
Pedologues Episode 1 (10 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas
Domain name set-up problems. Locating service providers prepared to allow an individual’s right to freedom of speech online. Contrasting responses from Libsyn.Org and DomainsByProxy.Com. Barriers to maintaining anonymity legally whilst managing a domain. (01:30 to 10:39)
Pedologue rationale. Who we are: Rookiee, Abraxas. Why we are here: help put the truth out, defend childlove, and support childlovers, especially young childlovers, and stigmatised youth. Law enforcement once told Abraxus that “we” never want you people to ever be given the opportunity to try and tell others about yourselves in a positive light. (10:40 to 13:29)
Perceptions of childlove. Society’s view versus childlove community’s view. Who is right? Love is always right. However, US cultural ideals tell us certain types of love are wrong. This is a distortion of the truth. This distortion is applied, for example, as punishment on any child exhibiting an “unhealthy” interest in their own taboo body parts or those of others. “Educators” go out of their way to ignore discussing these taboo body parts with the child. (13:30 to 23:19)
Sex education. What age do you teach a child about sex? Rookiee relates story about his over-protective mother, and the difficulty she had had in discussing the topic once he began to ask leading questions. Many children are kept in ignorance because the “educators” are too embarrassed to educate. In these situations, children seek information from alternative sources, ones they can trust. (23:20 to 27:59)
Self-loathing. Negative historic child abuse experience and/or paedophilic self-loathing shaping negative adult opinions toward intergenerational relationships. This dynamic occurred also within the homosexual community at a time when adult same-sex intimacy was illegal. (28:00 to 32:29)
Profit from discrimination. Increasingly, child abuse stories sell well, so anti-paedophile propaganda is a good business model for the media. Profit at the expense of a sexual minority group by highlighting the worst child abuse cases and repeatedly tell their readers that all paedophiles are capable of such crimes. When the media repeats a lie often enough, the falsehood becomes the truth and a stereotype is born. The stereotype is not easily dismantled even when contrary evidence is made available sufficient for them to experience cognitive dissonance. (32:30 to 40:59)
Grooming versus teaching. Parents mould their offspring into a shape that easily fits into society. The process of moulding is considered by society to be teaching the child. If the child responds well to this teaching, they can be rewarded say with a gift if their expectations are fulfilled. Society however, takes a very different view of communication between a paedophile and a child. Society interprets such communication as grooming, and if proven by law enforcement, the paedophile can be registered as a sex offender. (41:00 to 47:59)
Cotton wool kids. Face to face communication steadily being replaced by online communication. It is becoming harder to really get to know people. The younger generation is increasingly identifying with celebrities who they have never met in real life to such an extent they can be considered to be surrogate friends. In reality, the fans have fallen in love with the celebrity’s ego. (48:00 to 50:29)
Topics for future discussion, guests, podcast limitations, plugs for related initiatives. (50:30 to 01:02:10)
Pedologues Episode 2 (17 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas
Response to episode 1: sixty listeners. Improvements to broadcast quality. (01:30 to 04:39)
Suggested topics for discussion: sex offender registries, child pornography, literature, urban dictionary. (04:50 to 06:09)
Homosexual versus paedophile. Urban dictionary definition of “paedophile” and “homosexual”. “Homosexual: a person whose sexual preference is members of the same sex. Homosexuality is not a perversion or a disease, but merely an aspect of sexuality that has been around for thousands of years.” “Paedophile: a person who suffers from paedophilia, that is, an adult who is sexually attracted to children. Paedophilia is a mental disorder, not a sexual orientation or lifestyle choice. Specifically it is a paraphilia. The paraphilias are characterised by a recurrence of sexual urges, fantasies or behaviours that involve unusual objects, activities or situations. Terms like paedosexuals are misnomers and nothing more than political activism on the part of organised groups of paedophiles attempting to legitimise or legalise their abuse and predation of children.” (06:10 to 11:49)
Recommended literature. For MAPs who seek accurate information on the topic of boy love, girl love and youth sexuality: Tom o’Carroll: Paedophilia The Radical Case. Dr Edward Brongersma: Loving Boys Vols I and II. Anything by Theo Sandfort. Dr Judith Levine: Harmful to Minors. Rod Downey: The Moralist. (11:50 to 13:39)
Sex offender registries. They do not work. Registries are available for all to see online via websites such as “pedo-watch”, detailing sex offender photos, addresses, phone numbers plus other personal information. Apart from being fear generators, they function as hit lists for vigilantes to mete out rough justice without having to worry about law enforcement intervention. This is the closest the US has come to installing Nazi death camps, apart from setting up internment camps for Japanese prisoners of war. On-line offender registries for other crimes do not exist. (13:40 to 20:19)
Sex offender discrimination. Negative impact on the sex offender: barred from applying for housing as association is liable if any problems arose, employment terminated when hire found to be an offender, employment refused if job entails contact with children, keep beyond radius of 2000 feet around schools so large areas in towns become forbidden zones, notify authorities when car changed or address changed, law enforcement can search house without warrant at any time so no right to privacy and no fourth amendment, lose right not to incriminate yourself and thus the fifth amendment, offenders are forced to coalesce into colonies. Offenders continue to be punished long after they have paid their debt to society. Hypocrisy of law enforcement agencies encouraging sex offenders to succeed upon release whilst simultaneously removing all practical means to do so. (20:20 to 29:49)
Poll: Who would you prefer to socialise with a paedophile or a member of al-Qaeda? (29:50 to 31:29)
Boy celebrities: Zack and Cody, Paul Butcher. With the sound turned down, easier to concentrate on your masturbation fantasies and techniques. (31:30 to 33:29)
Pornography definitions: has to be distributed, has to be commercial and has to be lacking in artistic merit. But, what constitutes artistic merit? (33:30 to 35:04)
Child pornography. Difficult to eradicate, and, from a MAP’s perspective, such material will always exist so long as the face of the child can be seen. One should draw a distinction between child pornography and child erotica, the former is harmful in some way, whereas the latter has the ability to arouse. Pornography is neither the portrayal of the naked human form nor the portrayal of the natural loving human sexual act. Conflict in some US states between child pornography law and age of consent law: legal to have sex with a 16 year-old girl but a nude photo of her is child pornography. Instance of a 13 year-old boy being arrested for distributing child pornography, specifically photos of his naked self online. A naked child is now judged as obscene; in reality, a child’s body is beautiful and charming. Hypocritically, historic artefacts on display in public places, such as Michaelangelo’s David, are exempt from child pornography laws as they are deemed to be culturally significant. (35:05 to 44:54)
Peace versus aggression. Carl Sagan’s book Cosmos, final chapter: in studying anthropology, scientists conclude that peaceful humane societies allow open and free expression of nudity and sexuality across all ages, whereas aggressive societies make sex and nudity shameful, discriminate against sexual minorities, prohibit sexual expression among children, and thus become detached from humanity. (44:55 to 49:19)
Pedologues as activism. We are two individuals communicating the range of ideas raised on MAP boards in the hope that we can ultimately change societal attitudes towards MAPs. There are a lot of different perspectives within our community, and having this podcast we hope to open up discussion on these perspectives to a wider audience. Although the MAP boards are beneficial to those who participate, they are limited in what they can achieve simply because too many people hide among them, like frogs in a pond. By leaping out of the pond and engaging in activism there is of course increased risk, but there is no other way to change society. If more frogs left the pond to do more podcasts, then more voices would be heard and there would be a greater chance of bringing about change. (49:20 to 55:40)
Pedologues Episode 3 (24 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas
Failing education. HBO ‘parenting special’ focusing on the daily issues a US child has from the child’s perspective, in junior high school at age 12, and then two years later the same child at 14. It was apparent that at 12 years old, some of those kids would not be able to consent because they lacked sufficient communication skills, and hadn’t even figured themselves out, or the world around them, at that point. Failing education stunts a child’s development, for example: inadequate sex education. Useful to conduct similar HBO exercise say in Norway, or even say between US city kids and US rural kids, for comparison. (03:46 to 09:09; 12:30 to 14:49)
Keep children innocent. Societal mantra: children are innocent and must continue to be so. Innocence is a puritanical moralising term bearing no relevance to reality. Substitute “ignorance” for “innocence”. Due to these restrictions, the older child has to overturn/relearn cultural values into adulthood as reality becomes apparent. Freud: children have innate sexuality. (09:10 to 12:29)
Childhood sexual freedom. 1978 Danish movie ‘You Are Not Alone’. Film features a developing love affair between a post-pubescent boy and a pre-pubescent boy, in a supportive community. Denmark is a more open socialist country. By not imposing moral strictures on them, children are allowed to freely experiment and taste freedom. Film touches upon tensions between moralising Christians and liberty-promoting socialists. A noticeable thing about the film was the absence of any reprimand directed at the two boys. Often, US films with a similar theme depict an authoritarian figure entering the scene who then breaks up the relationship. Sex education is a taboo subject in the US and much avoided by adults who have responsibility for children. (14:50 to 20:59)
Conflict of conscience. Try to learn to think about the bigger picture to understand what lies behind other people’s viewpoints, even if they are hate-filled. Attempt to learn from life experiences. Inner conflicts often arise from the way a person is raised. (21:00 to 24:39)
Telling others. Rookiee has real hard time discussing his inner thoughts and experiences without risking incrimination (he breaks down at this point for five minutes, and continues to be pretty upset for the rest of the podcast). The conundrum of dating and fearing a date’s reaction to learning about his primary sexuality, having to hide the truth about himself from the world, like Jews in wartime Germany. His mother discovering lewd drawings, and confronting him at the dinner table: ‘How could you be so deviant?’ All he can do is hope the world will change. (24:40 to 31:09)
MAPs denounce MAPs. MAPs that do a disservice to their community. One guy handing out bubblegum in public to kids, instilling fear in communities. Self-loathing MAPS willing to denounce other MAPs for viewing illegal material. (31:10 to 33:14)
Historical discrimination. Just occasional glimmers of hope through friends and family who one comes out to. Response from a 19 year-old friend Rookiee opened up to was: don’t let the topic consume you or make you depressed. Friendship was a long-standing one, and Rookiee had, during that time, taught the boy a trade which in turn led to a computing career. But still people would say, well I hope to God you didn’t touch the boy whilst he was young. Parallel with black people in the 1960’s through no fault of their own happened to be born a different colour, and yet they were stigmatised and discriminated against. A further parallel: gays. Fortunately, it is now politically incorrect for bigots to discriminate against blacks and gays, but that recognition came about through hard-fought activism. (33:15 to 38:09)
Gays betray MAPs. The Gay agenda pushing MAPs aside as outcasts, whilst conveniently forgetting the historic union of the two dating back to ancient times when the concept of democracy was established. Abraxus thanks Rookiee for opening up and for his honesty about his internal conflicts, adding that many people within the MAP community face similar dilemmas. Rookiee goes into further detail about his young friend and voices regret over not looking out for him more whilst the boy was suffering physical and mental abuse from his father, also Rookiee’s work colleague. (38:10 to 43:14)
Ignorance and prejudice. The problem of holding honest conversations with people; risking being made to feel bad about yourself once that person responds. Risking creating a bad impression. Having to lie about yourself to protect yourself. What is deviance? Society being spoon-fed the lies, reinforcing their own ignorance and prejudices. (43:15 to 48:49)
MAP community diversity. (48:50 to 53:20)
Pedologues Episode 4 (10 October 2005) Rookiee and Rebellee
Boylove.net moderation. Rebellee is the entertainments officer of boylove.net and has been there since the beginning. Discussion about his role as a boylove.net moderator and the difficulty in keeping the peace, and having to resign because he no longer enjoyed the role. (01:35 to 11:24)
Story of Rebellee. He talked about the significance of the name Rebellee, and he told the story of meeting a 10 year-old boy at a racquet-ball club sitting on the steps. He asked the boy if he intended to go in to play, and the boy said I can’t, I am on my own so they won’t let me in. Rebellee told the boy I have no-one with me – come in with me. The pair spent two hours together in the club playing sport. Rebellee visited the club the following day, and guess who was sitting on the steps again: the same boy. Rebellee asked the boy what his name was. Rebel Lee said the boy. He was a boy who lived with older parents who were obviously not that interested in him; he had anger issues and obviously needed an adult in his life to look up to. Over the following years, Rebellee fulfilled that role for the boy. (11:25 to 14:39)
Being a boylover. What does it mean? Rebellee: boys are the greatest creatures on this earth and I would do anything to help a boy. A boy lover is not a child molester, the former has a boy’s best interests at heart whereas the latter is someone looking for a quick fix to satisfy his physical needs. (14:40 to 15:49)
Choosing one’s sexuality. Society’s view of paedophiles. Society believes that an adult can choose his or her sexuality; they fail to comprehend that a child lover is given no choice in the matter. We are what we are, and we have to live with that. Rebellee knew instinctively from age 11, that he liked boys. Society is ignorant if they believe that child lovers have mental issues due to an underlying sickness. Most intelligent people realise that paedophilia exists, but they just don’t want it considered acceptable. (15:50 to 18:19)
Paedophobia. Misuse of the word paedophile. Parents are terrified their boy will turn out homosexual, and the thought of their boy being around a boylover petrifies them because such a friendship will make their boy gay. If parents became aware that their innocent 8, 9, 10 year-old was playing with himself at night in bed while fantasising about another boy, they would be horrified and unable to accept it. It is ironic that we are intelligent enough to fly to the moon and back, and yet unable to accept what we are. The only game in town involves just heterosexuality and male and female. (18:20 to 21:49)
Celebrity boys you were into when you yourself were a boy. (21:50 to 41:14)
Normalising paedophilia. Will paedophilia ever be normalised and accepted? Rebellee: it has a long way to go. Only progress possible when stigmatisation of being gay stops once and for all, and homosexuality is treated as valid as heterosexuality. Such a shift has to start in the school environment, and right now there is no shift.(41:15 to 43:30)
Rebellee’s boylove genesis. Rebellee: First sexual experience was during a sleepover at age 11 with a same-age friend who initiated play after asking if he could do so. The only thought from that point on was of boys. There was a further incident at age 7 or 8, when sharing a room with another boy; both had showered and were dressed in bath robes, but the other boy approached him and undid the robe chord and stared at his naked body. Rebellee was furious and spurned his advances. Rebellee did not realise boys aged around 10 was the primary attraction until he was 15 years old. Girls were never in the picture. He had zero sex education as a child, and had no clue that boys played sexually with other boys. If parents found out what was going on between the two 11 year-old boys, they would call it “nasty”. (46:00 to 50:44)
Childhood guilt. Guilt about having sexual thoughts. Rebellee went to a Catholic school where he had to attend confession. He answered affirmative to the question posed by the priest on the topic of impure thoughts, and answered negative to the question of touching himself. By 10 years-old Rebellee was finished with the Catholic church anyway. Rookiee: An over-protective mother restricted him. Only when the mother discussed sex with her son, did self-experimentation begin, and always within the privacy of his bedroom. At age 7 or 8 within the school urinal, several boys invited him to come and perform synchronised peeing. His thought was this was the naughtiest thing ever, so he shied away. In retrospect, so many chances to do naughty things, but insufficient daring to follow through. Another experience at age 9 or 10, was a rare sleepover when two brothers in the house he stayed at, got undressed for bed and Rookie just stood there gawping as they stripped down to their tighty-whities. The older brother asked him to leave for his own room, and as he left, he felt really weird. He was so unfamiliar with human anatomy that the boy nakedness in front of him was a revelation. (50:45 to 01:02:46)
Discovering porn. Rookiee: When 11, accessed adult straight porn on his father’s computer by running a Norton utility to undelete files that had been deleted by his father, and placed the jpeg files on a disk to view on his own computer via a jpeg viewer. He managed to accumulate quite the porn collection in this way. When a friend came round, Rookiee showed off his computer, and the friend immediately asked whether he had some porn, to which the response was a flat “No!”. Rookiee looks back on that event as a missed opportunity simply because he was scared and so out of touch socially. Rebellee: His step-father had a porn collection, but these were photographs kept in a locked draw. He figured out the porn could be reached by opening the drawer below. He was happy to share the porn with friends when they came around. (01:02:47 to 01:05:44)
Molestation versus boylove. Rebellee: there were instances when men wanted to come onto me when I was a boy, but because they made physical advances, didn’t talk to me, and didn’t give me a choice, that scared me so I left the scene every time. I often wondered what might have happened is a man took me under his wing. These instances really made me afraid of men, and I really had no attraction towards men nor individuals older than myself. (01:05:45 to 01:18:14)
Age of consent. Rookiee: Sex education should be sufficiently thorough to educate a boy from a young age. That will then give him sufficient knowledge to decide from that whether to wants to experiment sexually with another person. Society should be sufficiently humane to allow him to experiment from that young age with whomever he wants. Rebellee: you should let mother nature decide when the time is right to experiment sexually, and that would be when the boy is able to ejaculate. This is essentially a compromise between what a boy might desire at an even younger age, and what society feels is appropriate. (01:18:15 to 01:23:46)
Pedologues Episode 5 (16 October 2005) Rookiee, Jeffrey Gold (SQIR) and Jessie
Categorising antis. Three types of people against us. Those who have been hurt in the past from some traumatic experience. Those who don’t understand us and just follow the status quo. Those who outwardly preach right-wing conformity. Difficult to combat these three types in one go as each opposes us in different ways. Jeffrey: Those hurt in the past suddenly appear when they realise they can make a lot of money by suing a third party for that past hurt. In parallel the media love child abuse stories, and politicians get more votes from an increasingly fearful society for invoking more stringent laws. (04:25 to 11:06)
Consent law validity. Rookiee: First few pedologues had blunt content. Perhaps we would make more progress if we were to address public concerns rather than debunk them, particularly on the topic of adults taking advantage of children. Age of consent law may be the best way to do this, for example Dutch law where a 12/16 bar with caveats was established until 2002. However, it was then raised to 16 thereafter. The US secretary of state Rice recently pressured Russia into raising the age of consent from 14 to 16. (11:07 to 14:04)
Over-protected child. Jeffrey: A 13 year-old boy he saw with his mother, followed her around like a lost puppy dog, and he thought ... nope, not ready. Firstly, over-protection means that at age 18, a boy is more likely to have insufficient skills to cope with real-world reality and adult responsibilities. Secondly, overprotection and pampering instils a sense of entitlement in mid-teens, which again is likely to cause the boy problems later on. Third, by not encouraging a child to discover things by himself, one removes the opportunity to experience a sense of achievement. A whole generation is being raised by adult rules and restrictions thereby stunting mental development. Educational authorities need to delay exit exams for up to 20% of US students to enable them to obtain their diplomas. Older generations validate these changes, by relating many under-protection experiences when they were kids. By raising the age of consent, governments only exacerbate the root problem. Wealthy people in cities are more tolerant of homosexuality than poor people in rural communities; the former are better informed. (14:05 to 26:19)
Creationism versus evolution. Religion and faith are all very well, but when you add humans to it you get chaos. Christianity is all about power and control. There are many different types of Christians, but mostly they preach bullshit to children about creationism and ignore evolution, that is to say: subservience trumps natural order. (26:20 to 38:09)
Single-parent families. The non-existent two-parent family. Children need knowledgeable and accepting others around them – people they can respect. Increasingly, single-parent families are the norm with endless temporary partners who have no wish to associate with or care for the child. (38:10 to 38:54)
Boylover's raison d'être. Misconception of the antis that all we want is bed the minor. In reality most boylovers first and foremost want to care and look out for the boy. (38:55 to 44:03)
Jessie’s abuse story. Jessie: Yes, abused between the ages of 4 and 13, and over time, multiple people forcing themselves upon me, especially when in foster care. I do not blame them for it even though I did not like it, but I could have done nothing to stop it - if I raised it with the police or councillors at the time, it would have led to even more problems for me, for example: shrinks coming to visit me and “fix” me. Those who force themselves on others are predators, not boylovers, and only out to get sexual gratification. The good folk are the boylovers who only want to help them learn and figure things out as they grow, and to generally support them. That is why I support them. (44:04 to 50:59)
Boylove, paedosexuality, paederasty. Three different terms that people muddle together. Paedosexuality is the sexual attraction towards a minor. Boylove is a moral ideal that paedosexuals attempt to achieve to set some sort of moral standard regarding their sexual attraction. Paederasty is the act of having a sexual relationship with a minor. Paederasty in ancient Greek times was more the definition of boylover, focusing on mentorship as a protégé. A high sense of morality was placed on the relationship, implying it was sanctioned by society. (51:00 to 57:04)
Explaining boylove to straights. Jeffrey: You know how you love women, and it is not always sexual, sure you want to get some, what guy doesn’t, but it’s not always that, occasionally it is the love you have for her as a person, and the respect she shows towards you. Also the value you place in mutual communication and sharing life experiences. Imagine if tomorrow, the government made the love you have for each other, illegal. Further, they also made it illegal for you to walk down a street and say hello to a woman you were attracted to, because the woman would be at risk from grooming. Jeffrey has come out to all his work colleagues and it transpires they support him. (57:05 to 59:47)
Enlightening the masses. Better world for all of us if somehow people could become more enlightened than they currently are. Rookieee: We are facing the stigma of homosexuality, plus the stigma of intergenerational relationships. The more hysteria gets heaped on these stigmas, the more problems society creates for itself. This is a vicious circle. If boylovers had unfettered access to boys, there would still be child rapes and child murders, but the boylovers will have had say, one hundred boys they will have nurtured, taught and treated as a little brother; very few of these will have also been sexual relationships. We are at the stage where children may as well walk around in public spaces with full-cover hijabs so adults cannot see any part of them. (59:48 to 01:05:00)
On other boards there is the [spoiler][/spoiler] tag, which doesn't seem to work here.