MAP Forum

Since the discussion has shifted to politics, I will just say that I am not a supporter of either the Democrats or the Republicans, in my opinion they are equally hypocritical. However, of the two evils, the current left looks worse. They dislike other people's opinions much more and are ready to censor everyone, as the left usually does, for the sake of the collective "truth", the one that they impose on everyone. And those who disagree are considered racists, misogynists and homophobes. The way they collectively deplatformed Trump makes me more concerned about free speech, even though Musk, who calls himself a defender of free speech, is in fact an equally hypocrite and misMAPist.

I felt that way in about 2015, Harlan. I feel like right has become much more hypocritical since then.

PorcelainLark wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:53 pm

Fragment wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 11:26 pm Is it beyond you both to make your points without being assholes?

I'm happy to have a polite debate as long as there's a foundation of mutual respect.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 12:54 am ...but we should wonder if perhaps Porc here isn't under his own confirmation bias via-a-vis Trump.

I preferred both Trump and Sanders to Clinton in 2016, I was indifferent in 2019. I've only been anti-Trump this election.

I'm not going to comment on whether MAGApedes are right or not, but I don't think it cannot be denied that Trump was often treated by the US and European press as some kind of existential threat to not just the postwar neoliberal globalist order, but the planet as a whole. His potential impact was really overblown, especially what with the Trump-Hitler comparisons.

"US and European press", as opposed to what? Russia Today?
Over all, Trump's been pretty bad from a Western point of view. Abandoning allies and security commitments in Afghanistan, abandoning Kurdish allies in Syria, indicating a willingness to withdraw support from Taiwan, putting pressure on Ukraine to make concessions to Russia. I mean, if you believe NATO is everything wrong with the world, I can understand a person thinking those are good things, but I don't see how you can deny Trump is over all bad for Western interests. Trump doesn't need to be Hitler to be a serious threat.

Anyway, after tomorrow, this stuff shouldn't matter. Thank God.

Russia Today isn't the only non-western outlet out there, y'know. As for the rest, all you cited is "western" foreign policy that is irrelevant to the daily lives of Americans, who care more about domestic issues like the economy. How do they benefit from a leftist drug-trafficking terrorist org establishing a state in the most resource-rich parts of west Asia? How do they benefit from having their taxpayer money being funnelled into a war against China over gay marriage in Taiwan? How do they benefit from an endless war in Afghanistan in the name of a corrupt puppet government? How do they benefit from supporting a corrupt country like Ukraine into a war to reclaim the sanctity of 1991 borders?

Nothing concrete I would say. Maybe there's a feel-good sort of way about winning an ideological battle, but that is all in the abstract. Short of engaging in settler colonialism, most Americans (and westerners in general) really do not benefit from the ongoing war in Ukraine or more military adventures on a concrete and material basis. There are beneficiaries, it's just not the average American tax-paying citizen, that's for sure.

As for Trump, you conveniently ignore how he disbursed billions of dollars into Ukraine, and how during his tenure he sent more troops into Afghanistan than ever before the 2021 withdrawal under Biden: https://www.mtracey.net/p/why-i-wont-vo ... nald-trump
Recently, Trump has also aligned himself with the neocohens on matters like Afghanistan, saying that the withdrawal was mistake, a stark departure from his previous position. So I really don't see why would you dislike Trump now since he is effectively doing a 180 degrees turn on his 2016 campaign.

Well, not that it matters for MAPs as the outcome will be the same regardless of who wins this year's US presidential elections.

Fragment wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:25 am I felt that way in about 2015, Harlan. I feel like right has become much more hypocritical since then.

Agreed. I partly attribute it to how western politics in general became more tribalistic: People will support a certain position simply to spite their opponents despite not benefiting from the support (e.g., MRAs supporting the age of consent and pedophobia just to get back at women rather than attacking the age of consent itself).
Some ay it's the censorship enacted by big tech since Trump's elections, but I would say part of the reason also lies with how the internet, rather than unifying people, incentivises tribalism via the formation of echo chambers. Echo chambers and censorship always existed, it's just that people relying on the internet more than ever before just to get news updates or communicate with acquaintances makes those two things more consequential.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 10:21 am Russia Today isn't the only non-western outlet out there, y'know.

Yeah, I'm sure Al Jazeera had a much bigger impact on the election than RT.

As for the rest, all you cited is "western" foreign policy that is irrelevant to the daily lives of Americans, who care more about domestic issues like the economy. How do they benefit from a leftist drug-trafficking terrorist org establishing a state in the most resource-rich parts of west Asia? How do they benefit from having their taxpayer money being funnelled into a war against China over gay marriage in Taiwan? How do they benefit from an endless war in Afghanistan in the name of a corrupt puppet government? How do they benefit from supporting a corrupt country like Ukraine into a war to reclaim the sanctity of 1991 borders?

Nothing concrete I would say. Maybe there's a feel-good sort of way about winning an ideological battle, but that is all in the abstract. Short of engaging in settler colonialism, most Americans (and westerners in general) really do not benefit from the ongoing war in Ukraine or more military adventures on a concrete and material basis. There are beneficiaries, it's just not the average American tax-paying citizen, that's for sure.

You're an isolationist. That's fine. As a European, the domestic politics of America don't matter to me, so my only stakes in America are their willingness for interventionism and whether disinformation legitimized. If you want to abandon the rest of the Western world because you believe democracy is an imperialist sham and climate change isn't real, that's up to you.

As for Trump, you conveniently ignore how he disbursed billions of dollars into Ukraine, and how during his tenure he sent more troops into Afghanistan than ever before the 2021 withdrawal under Biden: https://www.mtracey.net/p/why-i-wont-vo ... nald-trump

So you think Trump was the pro-Ukraine candidate this election? Or the Doha Accord would have happened under a Hilary Clinton presidency? I don't get why you have to give me the run around; if you think NATO and the West shouldn't intervene, just own it.

Recently, Trump has also aligned himself with the neocohens on matters like Afghanistan, saying that the withdrawal was mistake, a stark departure from his previous position.

You probably shouldn't use expressions like that unless you're an antisemite.

So I really don't see why would you dislike Trump now since he is effectively doing a 180 degrees turn on his 2016 campaign.

I don't see Trump turning into the pro-NATO, pro-science candidate.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ope-attack
https://web.archive.org/web/20240117142 ... 4-00132289

Well, not that it matters for MAPs as the outcome will be the same regardless of who wins this year's US presidential elections.

It's a sign of where things are headed. Paranoid potheads scuppering educated people's ability to direct society, because they're afraid of "big pharma", think climate change is just another lie from the "deep state", and non-Western regimes were all utopias until they were foiled by the CIA.
Good luck trying to persuade people pedophilia is something natural when this is where public discourse is headed. Still, maybe they'll switch from chemical castration to exorcism as their way of dealing with the problem.

Anyway, it's done. From now on Joe Rogan is the standard all political commentators should aspire to.

PorcelainLark wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:33 pm Yeah, I'm sure Al Jazeera had a much bigger impact on the election than RT.

I would say AIPAC and other Israeli lobbying groups had the biggest impact than even RT despite all the hullabaloo over "Russian collusion", but whatever suits you.

You're an isolationist. That's fine. As a European, the domestic politics of America don't matter to me, so my only stakes in America are their willingness for interventionism and whether disinformation legitimized. If you want to abandon the rest of the Western world because you believe democracy is an imperialist sham and climate change isn't real, that's up to you.

First, LMAO at the snark.

Second, I wouldn't really describe my position as 'isolationist'. It would be more accurate to summarise it as: "No MAP rights, no globalist empire. Simple as." Remember, we here are MAPs first and foremost, so antis will treat us the same regardless of our political opinions.

Third, you still haven't explained how a Russian victory in Ukraine, the American withdrawal from Afghanistan, and America possibly not pledging to defend a rogue government in Taiwan claiming to be the true Chinese government, are going to materially affect Europeans. So even from an European perspective, those events matter more from in terms of an abstract and ideological war for the sake of fulfilling ideological. It doesn't have much to do with the material realities of Western Europeans, which I assume is what you mean by "Europeans".
And as an American, I don't see any compelling reason as to why American taxpayers should give handouts to some former Soviet state for the sake of "our shared values", which is who we are in a rules-based order of freedom/human rights/democracy. Protecting the sanctity of 1991 borders to uphold spirit of Westphalian sovereignty, in my opinion, still wouldn't be enough of a reason to continue wasting cash into the war and not pressure Zelensky into signing a peace treaty with Russia. But that's the eventual conclusion unless NATO doesn't decide to invade Russia: Parts of Ukraine will fall into western and Russian spheres of influence, as both sides try to spin it into victory because less than 100% of Ukrainian soil got taken by either side.

So you think Trump was the pro-Ukraine candidate this election? Or the Doha Accord would have happened under a Hilary Clinton presidency? I don't get why you have to give me the run around; if you think NATO and the West shouldn't intervene, just own it.

I brought it up since you oppose Trump for supposedly being an isolationist, even though not only he was the first POTUS to arm Ukraine since 2014, but has become as much of a warmonger as the people he supposedly opposed. But even before 2020, he was a warmonger be it with Iran, Syria, or Venezuela. 2016 Trump isn't the same as 2024 Trump, so it's to the surprise of no one that is aware of American foreign policy that Trump is now cozy and on the same page with neocons like Liz Cheney when it comes to Ukraine, Iran, Taiwan, etc...

I don't see Trump turning into the pro-NATO, pro-science candidate.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ope-attack
https://web.archive.org/web/20240117142 ... 4-00132289

That was in 2020. Two years later, he changed his tune when it comes to Ukraine: https://x.com/mtracey/status/1780821727917867112

Anyway, it's done. From now on Joe Rogan is the standard all political commentators should aspire to.

Kind of non-sequitur since Joe Rogan set the tone for most podcasts to follow with the unpolished, unscripted flow of conversations present in every episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, among other aspects of mainstream podcasts influenced by Joe Rogan. So it's not just commentators that he influenced with his style.
But you're right, it's done. The post-2024 years will be "interesting" to witness, if you catch my drift.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:27 pm I would say AIPAC and other Israeli lobbying groups had the biggest impact than even RT despite all the hullabaloo over "Russian collusion", but whatever suits you.

You don't need to collude with Russia for RT to influence your opinion. Outside of the elite, who actually cares what happens to Israel? The only reason AIPAC has any influence is money. Israel is deeply unpopular among average people. RT has a much greater capacity to alter the average person's perceptions than AIPAC does.

Second, I wouldn't really describe my position as 'isolationist'. It would be more accurate to summarise it as: "No MAP rights, no globalist empire. Simple as."

In practice there's no difference between an "isolationist" and a so-called "anti-imperialist".

Remember, we here are MAPs first and foremost, so antis will treat us the same regardless of our political opinions.

So you're a single issue voter for MAP rights? You don't have any preferences for what kind of society you want to live in, other than that? For me, it doesn't matter if I have rights if I'm dead. Climate change is more important. I'm sorry, anyone who genuinely thinks all that matters is whether you're a MAP or not is a moron.

Third, you still haven't explained how a Russian victory in Ukraine, the American withdrawal from Afghanistan, and America possibly not pledging to defend a rogue government in Taiwan claiming to be the true Chinese government, are going to materially affect Europeans. So even from an European perspective, those events matter more from in terms of an abstract and ideological war for the sake of fulfilling ideological. It doesn't have much to do with the material realities of Western Europeans, which I assume is what you mean by "Europeans".

What are you saying? We live in a global economy. Of course what happens effects us materially. That aside, because economics isn't everything, Russia will push as far as it can into Europe given the opportunity. Appeasement doesn't work. Islamism actively wants the destruction of the Western world, so yes, I am concerned when we abandon fledgling democracies in the middle East.
It's clear. You think the West is what's stopping MAP rights, so you want it to collapse. So you discourage any action that would protect democracy. You want inaction, because you think it will further your political agenda.

And as an American, I don't see any compelling reason as to why American taxpayers should give handouts to some former Soviet state for the sake of "our shared values", which is who we are in a rules-based order of freedom/human rights/democracy. Protecting the sanctity of 1991 borders to uphold spirit of Westphalian sovereignty, in my opinion, still wouldn't be enough of a reason to continue wasting cash into the war and not pressure Zelensky into signing a peace treaty with Russia.

"I wouldn't really describe my position as isolationist". Sure thing.

So you think Trump was the pro-Ukraine candidate this election? Or the Doha Accord would have happened under a Hilary Clinton presidency? I don't get why you have to give me the run around; if you think NATO and the West shouldn't intervene, just own it.

I brought it up since you oppose Trump for supposedly being an isolationist, even though not only he was the first POTUS to arm Ukraine since 2014, but has become as much of a warmonger as the people he supposedly opposed. But even before 2020, he was a warmonger be it with Iran, Syria, or Venezuela.

I notice you haven't answered my questions.

2016 Trump isn't the same as 2024 Trump, so I don't see why you wouldn't support him, since you really seem to love wars in Eastern Europe and the global south to enforce a particular ideological system.

Sure thing, Ivan.

That was in 2020. Two years later, he changed his tune when it comes to Ukraine: https://x.com/mtracey/status/1780821727917867112

So you can cherry pick a handful of examples, not seeing the forest for the trees. If you're trying to say an Atlanticist would prefer Trump, you're either being disingenuous or you're actually delusional. Virtually the entirety of Europe, except Putin's best friend Orban, is repulsed by Trump.

But you're right, it's done. The post-2024 years will be "interesting" to witness, if you catch my drift.

As you say. Shame nothing will be done about climate change, other than making it worse.

I'm not going to say any more on the subject. We're diametrically opposed politically and I don't see either of us changing our minds.

PorcelainLark wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:32 pm You don't need to collude with Russia for RT to influence your opinion. Outside of the elite, who actually cares what happens to Israel? The only reason AIPAC has any influence is money. Israel is deeply unpopular among average people. RT has a much greater capacity to alter the average person's perceptions than AIPAC does.

Sure, it's the money. Hasbara propaganda spread through the NYT, WaPo, the Murdoch-owned media, etc... has nothing to do with it influencing public opinion

So you're a single issue voter for MAP rights? You don't have any preferences for what kind of society you want to live in, other than that? For me, it doesn't matter if I have rights if I'm dead. Climate change is more important. I'm sorry, anyone who genuinely thinks all that matters is whether you're a MAP or not is a moron.

"No MAP rights, no globalist empire. Simple as." What part of that do you not understand? And yes, this is the hill I'm willing to die on. Besides, you're unlikely to die from "DER KLIMERRR!" as the German youths scream nowadays, so get yourself together mate.

I preferred both Trump and Sanders to Clinton in 2016, I was indifferent in 2019. I've only been anti-Trump this election.

And you still pretend to be holier than thou.

That aside, because economics isn't everything, Russia will push as far as it can into Europe given the opportunity. Appeasement doesn't work. Islamism actively wants the destruction of the Western world, so yes, I am concerned when we abandon fledgling democracies in the middle East.
It's clear. You think the West is what's stopping MAP rights, so you want it to collapse. So you discourage any action that would protect democracy. You want inaction, because you think it will further your political agenda.

Jesus Christ, do you sound like the average boomer: "If we don't drop white phosphorus into Iraq, Saddam will invade America with his camels through the Atlantic Ocean!"; "Muh islamism will destroy the west with their camel jokeys and goats unless we kill dem brown people in their lands"; "Bald man bad Putin wants to take Berlin cuz he's so dastardly evil and all"; "London is only 51% white. The West has fallen."

Looks like you're still stuck in the 2000s new Atheism and 2015 European refugee crisis era. Times have moved on, bro.

Also, thank you for confirming that you indeed want other men to die for the sake of fulfilling your abstract ideological wants, irrespective of the actual costs whether it's in terms of human lives or the economy. Also, LOL at the fact that you still haven't explained how or why would America be adversely affected by a Russian victory in Ukraine, or for that matter Trump's interventionism in Venezuela, Syria, Iraq, and the Ukraine.

"I wouldn't really describe my position as isolationist". Sure thing.

But does it matter though?

Sure thing, Ivan.

Where's the lie though? You already stated you support waging wars across the global south in a bizarre act of proving some ideological point, so you're deeply invested in funding US stooges across west Asia even if it leads to millions of deaths (see the second Gulf war) for reasons far removed from the concerns of most Europeans, and almost all Americans.

So you can cherry pick a handful of examples, not seeing the forest for the trees. If you're trying to say an Atlanticist would prefer Trump, you're either being disingenuous or you're actually delusional. Virtually the entirety of Europe, except Putin's best friend Orban, is repulsed by Trump.

You're the one cherry-picking a 2020 quote, so I gave a more relevant source that is more recent. You should know that actions speak louder than words, and Trump has shown it with his escalation in Ukraine. Pretty much most of the stuff Putin lists as his grievances with Ukraine all occurred under the Trump administration. what else do you need.
Don't forget Trump's interventionism in Venezuela, Syria, Iraq, and the Ukraine.
As for "Europe" you should specify that you're referring to western and Northern Europe, since most Eastern Europeans love him as a symbol of anti-communism, and for Western Europeans it's natural since Americans are thought of as rednecks by them for a long time. Nothing new under the sun.

As you say. Shame nothing will be done about climate change, other than making it worse.

As if Kamala will ban fracking anytime soon :https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.36G366E

I'm more concerned with the present than the future, so whatever, I guess.

But hey, let's leave at it. No point in bickering about this when MAPs have more dire issues than whether the USA should prop up another corrupt puppet government in Afghanistan again, such as abolishing the SOR.

PorcelainLark wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:53 pm

Fragment wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 11:26 pm Is it beyond you both to make your points without being assholes?

I'm happy to have a polite debate as long as there's a foundation of mutual respect.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 12:54 am ...but we should wonder if perhaps Porc here isn't under his own confirmation bias via-a-vis Trump.

I preferred both Trump and Sanders to Clinton in 2016, I was indifferent in 2019. I've only been anti-Trump this election.

I'm not going to comment on whether MAGApedes are right or not, but I don't think it cannot be denied that Trump was often treated by the US and European press as some kind of existential threat to not just the postwar neoliberal globalist order, but the planet as a whole. His potential impact was really overblown, especially what with the Trump-Hitler comparisons.

"US and European press", as opposed to what? Russia Today?
Over all, Trump's been pretty bad from a Western point of view. Abandoning allies and security commitments in Afghanistan, abandoning Kurdish allies in Syria, indicating a willingness to withdraw support from Taiwan, putting pressure on Ukraine to make concessions to Russia. I mean, if you believe NATO is everything wrong with the world, I can understand a person thinking those are good things, but I don't see how you can deny Trump is over all bad for Western interests. Trump doesn't need to be Hitler to be a serious threat.

Anyway, after tomorrow, this stuff shouldn't matter. Thank God.

Anyway, after tomorrow, this stuff shouldn't matter. Thank God.

Yikes!