MAP Forum

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2025 3:45 pm**

Yes, sadly his original account and OP is not. Maybe it can be recovered from Web Archive or similar?

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2025 10:40 pm**

Any such reading list should, in my opinion, include Tom O'Carroll's "Paedophilia: The Radical Case" (1980).

Albeit quite old, that book is still incredibly contemporary, and it's what finally convinced me to become truly active in the MAP community. Reading it, I felt like a great deal of confusion subsided regarding my own feelings and their implications. I used to be firmly in the "virtuous", anti-legalization camp. Familiarizing myself with convincing pro-legalization arguments was, for me, critical to move on from repressed self-hatred to genuine self-acceptance.

I now understand that I could never truly accept myself as long as I held the belief that such powerful emotions in me were ultimately nothing but an egotistical and sadistic perversion. O'Carroll was the first to make me seriously contemplate the possibility that they might be, in fact, exactly what they feel like to me—romantic and erotic love—and that, in an ideal world free from repressive parenting/schooling and pedohysteria, acting upon them could be harmless and pleasurable for all involved.

O'Carroll's blog, Heretic TOC, is also enlightening reading, and obviously more up-to-date than his 1980 book.

Posted: **Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:32 pm**

WavesInEternity wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 10:40 pm Any such reading list should, in my opinion, include Tom O'Carroll's "Paedophilia: The Radical Case" (1980).

As a "reading pack" it wouldn't include full books- rather key excerpts (maybe max 20 pages?). Although I'm pro-reform, I also see a reading pack as necessarily introducing all the core ideas related to a particular domain. So it would introduce both pro-c and anti-c arguments.

I did manage to have my old posts recovered. But they are not in an easy to copy-paste format. I will repost this one, though.

Posted: **Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:38 pm**

I'll clean up this post a little later- here was the start of it, though.

I have actually downloaded a lot of the books I wanted to include, too. But I'm yet to go about the "trimming" process.

At university in the humanities I usually got 2-3 assigned readings per week for about 12 week on topics which amounted to a detailed understanding of the subject. My last 6 months could be said to be my own personalized version of that. I did a lot of reading and research- crumbs of which can still be seen as topics on this and other forums. This would be a medium term project, but the idea of it sounds kind cool and I'd really like others' input as to the ""curriculum"". I'm thinking something like:
<LIST type=""ol"">

What is minor attraction?

Ancient history of minor attraction

Modern history of minor attraction

Stigma and mental health

Paraphilias and psychology

Child sex abuse - perpetrators

Child sex abuse - victims

Harms of CSA

Pro-reform arguments (AMSC)

Pro-reform arguments (PIM)

Harm reduction arguments

Civil rights movements

Youth rights

Is there any obvious major topics I'm missing? Each topic should probably have ""Required reading"" (2-3 pieces) and ""optional reading/ viewing"" (2-5 pieces). Suggestions are most welcome. The goal should be education, not indoctrination so anti-c pieces are obviously necessary. Even actual anti pieces would be acceptable if they're high quality and not hateful. 
 
Hopefully this doesn't end up as another half-done project."
826,3351,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:04:57,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>1. What is minor attraction?

Is pedophilia a sexual orientation? (Seto, 2012)

Minor-Attracted Men's Lived Experiences of Romantic Attraction (Levitan, 2024)

Pedophilia and DSM-5: The Importance of Clearly Defining the Nature of a Pedophilic Disorder (Berlin, 2014)

Pedophile, Child Lover, or Minor-Attracted Person? (Jahnke, 2022)

Is Homosexuality a Paraphilia? The Evidence For and Against (Cantor, 2012)

Salter?

"
827,3352,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:05:27,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>2. Ancient history of minor attraction

Greece and Rome

Japan

Middle East

"
828,3353,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:06:45,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>3. Modern history of minor attraction

Punishing Queer Sexuality in the Age of LGBT Rights (De Orio, 2017) excerpt

NAMBLA (Paternotte, D. (2014). The International (Lesbian and) Gay Association and the question of pedophilia)

Vereniging Martijn ?

VirPed?

"
829,3354,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:07:06,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>4. Stigma and mental health

A Long, Dark Shadow (Walker, 2021) excerpt

B4U-Act

Rebecca Lievesley

Sara Janke

Is Contact with Children Related to Legitimizing Beliefs Toward Sex with Children Among Men with Pedophilia?

"
830,3355,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:07:26,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>5. Paraphilias, psychology and pathology

Schuler, M. et al (2019). ""Empathy in pedophilia and sexual offending against children: A multifaceted approach

"
831,3356,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:12:24,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>6. Child sex abuse - perpetrators
Prevalence (Abel?)

Grooming

Incest
"
832,3357,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:12:45,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>7. Child Sex Abuse - victims
Finkelhor

<URL url=""https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaps ... cle/206025"">Twin Study</URL>

"
833,3358,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:13:02,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>8. Punishing offenders

The Feminist and The Sex Offender (Levine)

Protecting Our Kids?: How Sex Offender Laws Are Failing Us (Horowitz)

From Rage to Reason: Why We Need Sex Crime Laws Based on Facts, Not Fear (Horowitz)

<URL url=""https://www.swlaw.edu/faculty/emeritus/ ... -carpenter"">Catherine L. Carpenter</URL>

Recidivism

Registries

Civil commitment

"
834,3359,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:14:10,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>9. Pro-reform arguments (AMSC)
Rind

Sandfort

Okami

Rivas

"
835,3360,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:14:30,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>10. Pro-reform arguments (PIM)
Impossibly Cute Boys (Andersson, 2024)

"
836,3361,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:14:47,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>11. Stigma and mental health

Is Contact with Children Related to Legitimizing Beliefs Toward Sex with Children Among Men with Pedophilia?

"
837,3362,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 11:15:36,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>12. Civil rights movements
LGBT trajectory

reconstructive vs deconstructive idpol

Rules for radicals
"
838,3363,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 13:48:21,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<r>13. Youth rights
Harmful to Minors (Levine)

John Holt - Escape from Childhood – The Needs and Rights of Children

Free Range Kids - Lenore Skenazy?

<URL url=""https://takingchildrenseriously.com/""> ... .com/</URL>

"
839,3365,612,Fragment,2024-11-05 16:01:58,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<t>To be honest, my target is mostly primarily MAPs who are unfamiliar with the research, don't know where to start and would like content segmented by theme with accompanying commentary. 
 
Basically like a university course. 
 
Right now there is stuff like FAQs, and there are wikis like Newgon. I'm thinking of something more approachable to bridge the gap.</t>"
840,4877,612,Fragment,2025-01-06 05:19:11,Re: "Mu University" core reading pack,"<t>I think I'd like to work on this to be part of my legacy while I'm away from the community, however I think I might make it independent of Mu. 
 
I would like volunteers who would be willing to research one particular ""unit"" and create the page for it (with readings).</t>"

Posted: **Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:39 pm**

CLover36 wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 3:26 pm
RoosterDance wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 3:19 pm
Fragment wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:22 am Prison.

Is Fragment still with us?

My appeal paperwork was filed last week. I don't have a hearing date set, yet.

Posted: **Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:11 am**

Fragment wrote: Sun Mar 23, 2025 11:32 pm As a "reading pack" it wouldn't include full books- rather key excerpts (maybe max 20 pages?). Although I'm pro-reform, I also see a reading pack as necessarily introducing all the core ideas related to a particular domain. So it would introduce both pro-c and anti-c arguments.

I did manage to have my old posts recovered. But they are not in an easy to copy-paste format. I will repost this one, though.

I was often required to read whole books in university, though admittedly seldom in 1st or 2nd year courses. The two chapters I'd probably recommend above all are "8 - 'Consent' and 'Willingness'" and "9 - Power and Equality", to be included in the pro-reform arguments section.

Another article I'd include is the following one on "The ethics of pedophilia":

https://www.ntnu.no/ojs/index.php/etikk ... 6?inline=1

I started writing a proper point-by-point response to it.

Posted: **Mon Mar 24, 2025 4:37 pm**

WavesInEternity wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:11 am I was often required to read whole books in university, though admittedly seldom in 1st or 2nd year courses.

I usually had required reading that would come in weekly at about 100-150 pages made up of 3-5 either whole journal articles or book excerpts. Whole books were typically "recommended reading".

I plan on having lengthy recommended reading lists for the interested. But I also want to distill the most important information down into a more digestible summary of key works.

Posted: **Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:01 pm**

I do love the idea of short courses on subjects such as map history, current research and safe activism.

I'm someone who likes to do online courses and I know very little about the map world really. I've been in forums and advocacy for a couple of decades and I know some areas very well, but I don't follow research, news and I've not slowed down to consider structured activism. I usually see a good idea and work with it. So for example, I've written to my MP several times on map issues because that's a correct channel to use. Something structured I could learn from and use would be really helpful.

Posted: **Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:35 pm**

WavesInEternity wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 12:11 am
Another article I'd include is the following one on "The ethics of pedophilia":

https://www.ntnu.no/ojs/index.php/etikk ... 6?inline=1

I started writing a proper point-by-point response to it.

That article doesn't start in the best way (bold mine):

The ethics of pedophilia
Ole Martin Moen
University of Oslo, Centre for the Study of Mind in Nature o.m.moen@ifikk.uio.no

Pedophilia is bad.[...]

I have skimmed the rest, and everywhere I landed it wasn't much better either.

I'm curious to see your point-by-point response.

Posted: **Mon Mar 24, 2025 5:47 pm**

WavesInEternity wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 10:40 pm Any such reading list should, in my opinion, include Tom O'Carroll's "Paedophilia: The Radical Case" (1980).

Albeit quite old, that book is still incredibly contemporary, and it's what finally convinced me to become truly active in the MAP community.

I agree. It is very well written and should be put among the top must-read books.