MAP Forum

While my previous comment was intended for amusement, I would like to expand on it in a more serious vein. Consider the following:

I am genuinely asexual; that is, I do not experience sexual attraction at all. I have absolutely no sex drive whatsoever, and therefore, I would never desire sex for my own sake. However, I am not repulsed by it, and I actively wish to make those I care about happy, which sex can facilitate. Thus, while I do not seek sex to satisfy a sexual urge, I can still desire it as a means of bringing joy to someone else.

I am also a survivor of CSA, having endured repeated sexual assault from the ages of 9 to 10. Additionally, I have friends with similar experiences. Consequently, I am acutely aware of the damage that can result from sexual abuse, and harm reduction has always been paramount to me. While I never consented to what happened to me, I maintain that I was fully capable at the time of deciding what I wanted and what I did not want.

It is often said that children cannot consent due to poor judgement. In my experience, there are many adults who exhibit equally poor judgement, yet their ability to consent is rarely questioned. If poor judgement is the reason one cannot consent, then many adults should also be regarded as incapable of doing so. This notion is absurd, as is the idea that children's capacity for judgement is so deficient that they are unable to consent.

All things considered, I wholeheartedly support the push for reform. The belief that AoC laws protect children from sexual abuse is preposterous, given that actual sexual offenders—those who act without explicit consent—do not care about the legal status of their actions. While laws against sexual misconduct do not address the root of the problem, they do provide some level of protection; however, AoC laws primarily serve to punish innocent individuals. This situation is akin to drug laws, which fail to prevent people from selling or using drugs and instead criminalise innocent individuals, hinder those seeking help, and make drug use more dangerous by limiting access to safe sources. Just as Portugal’s decriminalisation of all drugs and the implementation of harm reduction programmes led to a significant decrease in drug-related deaths, I am confident that removing AoC laws and adopting a holistic approach to preventing sexual misconduct would similarly reduce instances of real CSA.

To address any problem effectively, one must tackle its root causes. Laws alone do not achieve this; they merely prune the branches while leaving the root intact. The root of this issue lies within the human psyche and necessitates a cultural shift for resolution. Comprehensive education about consent, healthy relationships, and respect should be integrated into school curricula from an early age. This can help shape attitudes and behaviours before harmful patterns take hold. Furthermore, involving communities in discussions about sexual misconduct can foster a sense of collective responsibility. Community programmes that promote respect, empathy, and understanding can help shift cultural norms. The media also plays a significant role in shaping societal attitudes; promoting positive representations of relationships and challenging harmful stereotypes can contribute to cultural change.

Cultural change takes time and requires sustained effort. Ongoing dialogue, evaluation of programmes, and adaptation to new challenges are essential for creating lasting change.

By focusing on improving societal attitudes and behaviours, we can cultivate an environment that not only discourages sexual misconduct but also promotes healthy, respectful interactions among individuals. This comprehensive approach can lead to more meaningful and enduring change.

Julia wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 11:58 pm
I am genuinely asexual; that is, I do not experience sexual attraction at all. I have absolutely no sex drive whatsoever, and therefore, I would never desire sex for my own sake. However, I am not repulsed by it, and I actively wish to make those I care about happy, which sex can facilitate. Thus, while I do not seek sex to satisfy a sexual urge, I can still desire it as a means of bringing joy to someone else.
regarded as incapable of doing so. This notion is absurd, as is the idea that children's capacity for judgement is so deficient that they are unable to consent.

Asexual MAP?

liliets wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 12:19 am Asexual MAP?

Yup. I experience romantic attraction, emotional attraction, sensual attraction, aesthetic attraction, intellectual attraction.. just no sexual attraction. The only times I've had sex was to please people. I do enjoy the physical closeness and intimacy of it, although I prefer cuddling.

You can read about the different types of attraction here https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships ... attraction

Julia wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 12:39 am

liliets wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 12:19 am Asexual MAP?

Yup. I experience romantic attraction, emotional attraction, sensual attraction, aesthetic attraction, intellectual attraction.. just no sexual attraction. The only times I've had sex was to please people. I do enjoy the physical closeness and intimacy of it, although I prefer cuddling.

You can read about the different types of attraction here https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships ... attraction

I recently learned about that. I consider myself "Demisexual MAP" since I would firstly have romantic/emotional attraction and secondly sexual attraction so I would not have sex with someone I am not firstly romantic/emotional attracted to.

For me is interesting how diverse the MAP Community is and how we often overlap within the LGBT+ Community.

liliets wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 12:54 am I recently learned about that. I consider myself "Demisexual MAP" since I would firstly have romantic/emotional attraction and secondly sexual attraction so I would not have sex with someone I am not firstly romantic/emotional attracted to.

For me is interesting how diverse the MAP Community is and how we often overlap within the LGBT+ Community.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, liliets! It's great to hear about the diversity within the MAP community and how it intersects with the LGBT+ community. Understanding the different ways people experience attraction, such as demisexuality, can help foster a more inclusive environment for everyone. It's important to recognise and respect the unique identities and experiences that each person brings to the table. Conversations like this can help us build bridges and promote empathy among all communities. I appreciate your openness in discussing this!

Julia wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 4:49 am
Thank you for sharing your perspective, liliets! It's great to hear about the diversity within the MAP community and how it intersects with the LGBT+ community. Understanding the different ways people experience attraction, such as demisexuality, can help foster a more inclusive environment for everyone. It's important to recognise and respect the unique identities and experiences that each person brings to the table. Conversations like this can help us build bridges and promote empathy among all communities. I appreciate your openness in discussing this!

You're welcome. And that is right. for people outside of the community understand us we first need to understand each other so is always helpful to discuss our perspectives

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm Yeah, what kind of activist would want to tackle insignificant things like prejudice, discrimination, and stigma, just for a silly little thing like social acceptance?

This isn't VoA. You can argue here without the condescension.

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm Hard disagree. If 'normies' see you in a legal romantic relationship with a child, the social ramifications could be devastating -- for the adult and for the child. It is not cowardice to avoid or conceal such relationships, to guard against such a high price.

I think one question I have here is "can you envision a path forward that is bloodless?" My answer is a definite "no". Already MAPs face assault and even murder. Civil rights movements past (black rights, gay rights) have involved violence. I don't see us as having any way of escaping that. At first there will be violence and death with no fanfare, but eventually those who die will become martyrs. If we imagine a successful future, reflecting back on it there will be our Stonewall moment, our Harvey Milk, our Matthew Shepard.

Right now we're still not seen as an organized threat. There is no real "fight against pedos". But if we are ever taken more seriously as a movement the pushback will only intensify. But simultaneously I don't think there is a lot that can be accomplished while remaining in the safety of the shadows.

But do I think present day, 2025 is the right time to come out and be a martyr? No. Especially not in the local way of "having a YF publicly". There might be some value in martyrdom alongside a public profile. Personally, I am willing to risk that if it comes to it. I've got too little left to lose to care. That, and I've always been an agitator. In the early 2000s in my last year of high school I came out as publicly gay in a rural community where gay bashing was still a possibility. I don't suggest that anyone else needs to take risks with their safety. But personally, that's where my head is at (when it's not giving up and being suicidal).

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm

Fragment wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 12:45 pm What even is a "reform" agenda that pushes for stuff that is already legal?

Yeah, what kind of activist would want to tackle insignificant things like prejudice, discrimination, and stigma, just for a silly little thing like social acceptance?

I guess I've always been of the mindset that activism is primarily about influencing laws. Perhaps because I've always been anti-social, in the sense that I don't care if I'm ostracized.

It's people with guns putting me in cages that I care about. Being called nasty names is something I've dealt with since my age was in the single digits. I guess I've also been lucky, though, that many people that do know about my preference have stuck by me. It's probably easier to say "I don't give a fuck what people think" when at least some of my closest people do, in fact, show empathy towards me.

I would've asked "what does changing society without changing laws even look like?" but you did go on to offer a possibility

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm For those who recognize the necessity of social reform in our activism, one way to inspire social change is via media representation. If millions of viewers could see positive depictions of legal romantic relationships in mainstream media, that would probably have a much broader impact than some bloke committing social suicide by outing himself as a paedophile in some small town by openly having a 'legal' romantic relationship with a child. Real meaningful change (for those who want to see it) is more likely to come from lobbying media producers, publishers, and writers to challenge the biases around adult-child romantic relationships.

I question if this is a chicken and egg scenario, though? Media depictions will often arise from artists and producers having experienced or witnessed MAP relationship dynamics. Just asking Hollywood to make a compassionate movie about us won't go far. I guess MAP producers working in the Indie scene would be a start, much as how gay film was only strongly present in indie media until the 80s-90s. But I still think key to this will be "I know a MAP, and he/ she's alright". I don't see much room for positive media portrayals until the battle is already halfway won.

It reminds me of "After the Ball", a book written about the direction gay activists should take. It was written in 1989. It definitely did plot a course for success, but it feels almost a little redundant as there was already a lot of forward momentum built up by that point.

We're more at the level of the Society for Human Rights in 1924 (as a side note it's interesting that even as early as 1924 there were gay activists suggesting that boylove should be jettisoned as part of a "winning strategy").

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm I will never understand that vague, poorly-defined concept of 'grooming.' But if it means to turn legal activities in to 'forbidden' ones, then this is something else our activism should fight, too. With high priority.

Catching when these specific proposals are raised and voicing our opposition to them is something Mu has been active with (most recently with AI restrictions). Yet, we're still largely yelling into the void. How can we assign it a higher priority? How can we get people to listen to us? Right now it feels like a lot of our attempts at activism are just reinforcing our own sense of persecution. Internal unity and consistent messaging is important. But if only MAPs read Mu, I believe we're falling short.

I sent you a PM on VoA, though. I'm not sure if you'll get to read that before you read this.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am I think one question I have here is "can you envision a path forward that is bloodless?" My answer is a definite "no". Already MAPs face assault and even murder. Civil rights movements past (black rights, gay rights) have involved violence. I don't see us as having any way of escaping that. At first there will be violence and death with no fanfare, but eventually those who die will become martyrs. If we imagine a successful future, reflecting back on it there will be our Stonewall moment, our Harvey Milk, our Matthew Shepard.

I concur with your viewpoint, and I would like to add that while it is inevitable that we will encounter increased violence as this movement gains momentum, it is essential that we do not exacerbate that violence by responding with aggression ourselves. Examining historical civil rights movements, such as the Indian Independence Movement and the South African Anti-Apartheid Movement, reveals that nonviolent approaches tend to be more sustainable over time. These movements foster a sense of community and solidarity among participants, which helps maintain momentum. In contrast, violent movements often lead to cycles of retaliation and further conflict, making it challenging to achieve lasting change.

As we stand at the crossroads of history, let us choose the path of peace, guided by the light of love and understanding. For in this choice, we may yet create a world where the cries of the oppressed are met not with violence, but with the gentle embrace of compassion and the unwavering resolve to seek justice for all.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm Hard disagree. If 'normies' see you in a legal romantic relationship with a child, the social ramifications could be devastating -- for the adult and for the child. It is not cowardice to avoid or conceal such relationships, to guard against such a high price.

I think one question I have here is "can you envision a path forward that is bloodless?" My answer is a definite "no". Already MAPs face assault and even murder. Civil rights movements past (black rights, gay rights) have involved violence. I don't see us as having any way of escaping that. At first there will be violence and death with no fanfare, but eventually those who die will become martyrs. If we imagine a successful future, reflecting back on it there will be our Stonewall moment, our Harvey Milk, our Matthew Shepard.

Ok, thanks for explaining more of your thought process and where you're coming from on this. I'd like to talk about it more sometime in another thread. For the purposes of this discussion topic (on why MAPs should support paedosexuals), I'll just say that, yes... when 'martyrdom' is a likely outcome of a 'legal' romantic relationship, then so too is great suffering. Most paedosexuals are not going to expose the children they love to such suffering (in this case caused not by laws, but by society).

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm

Fragment wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 12:45 pm What even is a "reform" agenda that pushes for stuff that is already legal?

Yeah, what kind of activist would want to tackle insignificant things like prejudice, discrimination, and stigma, just for a silly little thing like social acceptance?

I guess I've always been of the mindset that activism is primarily about influencing laws. Perhaps because I've always been anti-social, in the sense that I don't care if I'm ostracized.

I understand. I've always been a 'systems' person. I find it fascinating, the interplay between social, political, and legals systems. It's all connected. But that social hatred against us... Just like that 'gay bashing' in the 2000s. People shoot and attack 'suspected' MAPs all the time, even when no actual crimes were committed. That is a social issue that badly needs reform. And activism for social reform benefits all MAPs (including the paedosexuals referenced in this thread). Yes, AoC activism can still be done also. It doesn't have to be one or the other! We can recognize our need to address broad goals, even if we don't know 'how' today. We'll figure it out, together.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am Being called nasty names is something I've dealt with since my age was in the single digits.

Hey. You should never get used to people treating you like that, OK? You're gonna make me cry, because I went through it as a child, too. And as MAPs, we all go through it. But nobody should ever 'get used to' it.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am I question if this is a chicken and egg scenario, though? Media depictions will often arise from artists and producers having experienced or witnessed MAP relationship dynamics. Just asking Hollywood to make a compassionate movie about us won't go far. I guess MAP producers working in the Indie scene would be a start, much as how gay film was only strongly present in indie media until the 80s-90s.[...]

The 'how' is a question for a strategy thread. We don't know all the answers today. We'll figure it out. Just acknowledging its value and setting it as a goal is good enough for the purposes of this discussion. But I like your idea about indie media. That is sort of where my mind was going, too.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am

OnionPetal wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 9:55 pm I will never understand that vague, poorly-defined concept of 'grooming.' But if it means to turn legal activities in to 'forbidden' ones, then this is something else our activism should fight, too. With high priority.

Catching when these specific proposals are raised and voicing our opposition to them is something Mu has been active with (most recently with AI restrictions). Yet, we're still largely yelling into the void. How can we assign it a higher priority? How can we get people to listen to us? Right now it feels like a lot of our attempts at activism are just reinforcing our own sense of persecution. Internal unity and consistent messaging is important. But if only MAPs read Mu, I believe we're falling short.

That 'how' question again. Leave it for the strategy team. I think you want to do it all yourself, and then you get frustrated/overwhelmed balancing so many plates when things don't move fast enough, and then you blame yourself, etc. And I get that -- most MAPs have had to learn to act as lone wolves, and to do things for ourself. But take a look around. You're growing an active forum, and there are lots of people here to help. Maybe at some point the leaders will think about delegating sub-committees and task groups to work through some of the important stuff that is outside of your personal working focus.

What's the old saying... 'Don't miss the forest for the trees'? Don't lose sight of that vision for a brighter future for all MAPs. Sometimes, you have to put your work down, take a step back, zoom out, and look at the big picture -- how everything's connected. Again, you don't have to do it all yourself.

Fragment wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 8:15 am I sent you a PM on VoA, though. I'm not sure if you'll get to read that before you read this.

I didn't get it, but I PM'ed you there in case you want to send a reply.