MAP Forum

Concerned Coffee Mug wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:48 pm

Strato wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 10:09 pmUnfortunately for us, the LGBT community conveniently forget the sacrifices made by their forebears to provide them with the quality of life they now take for granted.

This may be may an uncomfortable opinion, but I think it needs to be said that no one owes us anything, Strato. The LGBT community is not obligated to take us in, risk anything for us, or make any sacrifices for us. The fact that we relied on another community to liberate or in someway improve our lives is our own fault. It was a risk we took, and a deeply miscalculated one at that.

In MAP spaces, there appears to be this belief that they should've helped us or done something for us when in reality every community will only ever act in its own interests. When queer folks began gaining acceptance, they threw us away and formally rejected us. That's true. But if we want a better quality of life for ourselves, we have to fight for it on our own.

Whether the LGBTQ movement decides to accept us or not, the MAP movement seems to be doing well by itself. Also I noticed we have over 425 members in MU and I noticed every day, at least 1 new member joins. I predict MU would have 600 members in August 2025 and in two years time, there would be about 1500 members.

Concerned Coffee Mug wrote: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:48 pm

Strato wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 10:09 pmUnfortunately for us, the LGBT community conveniently forget the sacrifices made by their forebears to provide them with the quality of life they now take for granted.

This may be may an uncomfortable opinion, but I think it needs to be said that no one owes us anything, Strato. The LGBT community is not obligated to take us in, risk anything for us, or make any sacrifices for us. The fact that we relied on another community to liberate or in someway improve our lives is our own fault. It was a risk we took, and a deeply miscalculated one at that.

In MAP spaces, there appears to be this belief that they should've helped us or done something for us when in reality every community will only ever act in its own interests. When queer folks began gaining acceptance, they threw us away and formally rejected us. That's true. But if we want a better quality of life for ourselves, we have to fight for it on our own.

“In MAP spaces, there appears to be this belief that they should've helped us or done something for us …”

My point was, we were once a single community thanks to the pioneering work of Karl Ulrichs with regard to sexual liberation, sexology, and ‘third sex’ theory which encompassed paederasts and paedophiles. Magnus Hirschfield later developed political strategies via age of consent law to secure greater tolerance for homosexual men, but to achieve this, the Scientific-Humanitarian Committee which he founded, upheld criminal law outlawing homosexual acts between adults and minors. We have long since lost Ulrichs vision of sexual liberation.

“… when in reality every community will only ever act in its own interests.”

Each one of ‘us’ is not obligated to risk anything for others either. And therein lies the problem.

This may be an uncomfortable opinion also. We can hardly call ourselves a community whilst hiding behind the parapet online within anonymous talking shops. Historically, human rights battles have tended to be won as a result of in-real-life activism and political nous.

Yes. Due to safety, we should meet in person.

Strato wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:55 am This may be an uncomfortable opinion also. We can hardly call ourselves a community whilst hiding behind the parapet online within anonymous talking shops. Historically, human rights battles have tended to be won as a result of in-real-life activism and political nous.

And that's exactly why any activism I do is aimed outwards away from the community, not inwards. I used to run a map blog but then I realised it was mostly maps or small minority of people with an interest in maps that visited, so my blog wasn't going to change anything. Blogging for other maps has its value, but not as an advocacy tool.

So instead I focused on contributing to projects not in the map world, projects unrelated to maps but where I could look for opportunities to speak out or build things that are map friendly. I'm not out publicly, I do sometimes think about doing that and I think I will at the right time, but being out has its own problems, it can limit the places we can campaign and it can cause people to immediately say I'm biased.

I do think that offline community building is at least as important as online. We just be less fractured, we should form friendships and connections and local communities and online communities and we should look at ways we can have an impact in the world around us to bring change, because change won't happen without us working toward it.

An offline MAP community would be awesome. However, it would have to be heavily vetted. Not just anybody should be let in. And it can't be advertised out in the open. So I am not sure how to go about getting something like that started. Somebody on MAP Rights Forum was going to try it but I am not sure as to what happened with that.

Lennon72 wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:13 pm An offline MAP community would be awesome. However, it would have to be heavily vetted. Not just anybody should be let in. And it can't be advertised out in the open. So I am not sure how to go about getting something like that started. Somebody on MAP Rights Forum was going to try it but I am not sure as to what happened with that.

Last year, I did some reading on the history of the queer community leading up to stonewall in the hopes of finding answers to these exact questions. Synthesizing all the information I learned, particularly about gay bars, led me to a concept for a sort of 'map bar' or a 'kind clubhouse' that could act as a hub for local map and aam communities. The idea is to first find local maps and form a small group of trustworthy maps and allies. Then, pooling your savings together, you could buy an ordinary building in a dense city neighborhood and convert the interior into something that both maps and aams would find appealing: perhaps a cafe and arcade combination similar to Ben&Jerry's or Chuck E. Cheese's, a place where both adults and children alike can play games, eat snacks, and socialize with friends. The exterior can remain nondescript, save for a sign indicating that the building houses a private club. As far as membership and vetting goes, kids and teens would be admitted for free, no questions asked, but any adult asking for entry would need to be a trusted member of the community or to have a trusted member vouch for them. Finally, advertisement would be carried out simply through word of mouth. In the same way that the founders of the clubhouse will have found each other by getting out and meeting maps, members of the clubhouse would continue to meet new maps, allies, and aams and refer them back to the clubhouse. This idea may not be perfect, but I think it's a start, and it does a decent job of addressing my biggest fears and concerns with in-person meetings, especially since nothing here would be illegal.

I guess the only question I'm left with is "how the heck do I find local maps?" I invite anyone who's actually met and befriended maps in person to describe how you managed to make that happen.

hugs wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:20 pm This idea may not be perfect, but I think it's a start, and it does a decent job of addressing my biggest fears and concerns with in-person meetings, especially since nothing here would be illegal.

Your rose-tinted vision sadly does not correspond to reality. The "grooming" hysteria means that the authorities would consider any overt interactions between MAPs and minors to be potentially illicit. I don't think they'd even accept having a MAP meeting space in the same city as children. Few parents would let their teenage children be in such archetypal "bad company". Even more problematic is the fact that some of the MAPs and AAMs involved would inevitably develop feelings for each other and ultimately break the law.

As long as the visibility of MAPs hasn't significantly increased, and the public perception of us as dangerous "predators" hasn't substantially changed, I can't see your project working in practice, as lovely as it would be to consort with enthusiastic AAMs in person. The only way would be for its nature to be completely secret, but that would be immensely difficult.

hugs wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:20 pm I guess the only question I'm left with is "how the heck do I find local maps?" I invite anyone who's actually met and befriended maps in person to describe how you managed to make that happen.

I've never met one. I'm "out" to about ten people among friends and family, but none ever admitted to having any real feelings of minor-attraction of their own. Well, the closest I've had was a friend telling me he thought "jailbait" could be attractive and some lolicon I showed him was "cute" and had artistic value, but that's from a guy who also said he thinks "all women are beautiful" and has a marked preference for MILF pornography... so, yeah.

In fact, the most sympathy and understanding I've had was from my two autopedophilic girlfriends. They actually loved my lolicon.

WavesInEternity wrote: Tue Mar 25, 2025 12:58 am Your rose-tinted vision sadly does not correspond to reality. The "grooming" hysteria means that the authorities would consider any overt interactions between MAPs and minors to be potentially illicit. I don't think they'd even accept having a MAP meeting space in the same city as children. Few parents would let their teenage children be in such archetypal "bad company". Even more problematic is the fact that some of the MAPs and AAMs involved would inevitably develop feelings for each other and ultimately break the law.

As long as the visibility of MAPs hasn't significantly increased, and the public perception of us as dangerous "predators" hasn't substantially changed, I can't see your project working in practice, as lovely as it would be to consort with enthusiastic AAMs in person. The only way would be for its nature to be completely secret, but that would be immensely difficult.

It sounds "rose-tinted" because I shared only the most sanitized details for the sake of brevity. The gay bars, on which I based this idea, had a rough history. The police raid on the most famous of these bars, stonewall inn, that sparked the stonewall riots was not an isolated event. One the contrary, stonewall, like other gay bars, had been raided by police once every few months since its opening. Moreover, the police actually had a legal justification for those raids, as it was illegal to serve alcohol to gays at the time, and many of the bars patrons were underage. The only reason why stonewall wasn't shut down was because its mafia owners would bribe the police regularly. I imagine that the operation of any sort of 'map bar' would be similarly messy, even without legal justifications for police involvement. My vision, therefore, is not of a rosy, secret playhouse; it is of a map-centered space whose existence our community will have to fight to preserve, over and over again.

If we continue to do nothing and wait, whether it be for visibility to increase or for public perception to change or otherwise for conditions to be ideal, then we will never accomplish anything. The gays formed bars and built communities when conditions were unfavorable, to say the least. Why can't we do the same? Why are we so afraid?

hugs wrote: Tue Mar 25, 2025 4:11 amMy vision, therefore, is not of a rosy, secret playhouse; it is of a map-centered space whose existence our community will have to fight to preserve, over and over again.

I see. So more similar to the illegal headshops that pop up repeatedly in e.g. North America and the Netherlands selling magic mushrooms, get shut down by the authorities only to reopen under a different guise, get shut down again with harsher penalties, are recreated again in an even more brazen form, until (by now, after half a century of efforts) some are finally left alone because city authorities decided it's low-priority for law enforcement.

A high-risk, high-reward labour of love, for people willing to jeopardize their entire future for a cause they believe in.

It just might work in the right city, at the right time, but the world isn't ready for it now. As things stand, it'd be like suggesting a meeting place for kitten torture enthusiasts.

hugs wrote: Tue Mar 25, 2025 4:11 am If we continue to do nothing and wait, whether it be for visibility to increase or for public perception to change or otherwise for conditions to be ideal, then we will never accomplish anything. The gays formed bars and built communities when conditions were unfavorable, to say the least. Why can't we do the same? Why are we so afraid?

The gays back then didn't have the Internet. It's really the main reason. The cost/benefit analysis has changed completely. Prison sucks; anonymity is usually a good way to avoid it.

hugs wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:20 pm

Lennon72 wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:13 pm An offline MAP community would be awesome. However, it would have to be heavily vetted. Not just anybody should be let in. And it can't be advertised out in the open. So I am not sure how to go about getting something like that started. Somebody on MAP Rights Forum was going to try it but I am not sure as to what happened with that.

Last year, I did some reading on the history of the queer community leading up to stonewall in the hopes of finding answers to these exact questions. Synthesizing all the information I learned, particularly about gay bars, led me to a concept for a sort of 'map bar' or a 'kind clubhouse' that could act as a hub for local map and aam communities. The idea is to first find local maps and form a small group of trustworthy maps and allies. Then, pooling your savings together, you could buy an ordinary building in a dense city neighborhood and convert the interior into something that both maps and aams would find appealing: perhaps a cafe and arcade combination similar to Ben&Jerry's or Chuck E. Cheese's, a place where both adults and children alike can play games, eat snacks, and socialize with friends. The exterior can remain nondescript, save for a sign indicating that the building houses a private club. As far as membership and vetting goes, kids and teens would be admitted for free, no questions asked, but any adult asking for entry would need to be a trusted member of the community or to have a trusted member vouch for them. Finally, advertisement would be carried out simply through word of mouth. In the same way that the founders of the clubhouse will have found each other by getting out and meeting maps, members of the clubhouse would continue to meet new maps, allies, and aams and refer them back to the clubhouse. This idea may not be perfect, but I think it's a start, and it does a decent job of addressing my biggest fears and concerns with in-person meetings, especially since nothing here would be illegal.

I guess the only question I'm left with is "how the heck do I find local maps?" I invite anyone who's actually met and befriended maps in person to describe how you managed to make that happen.

I don't know about meeting local maps but I've met double digit numbers of maps, a few times a year I'll meet with map friends for walks in the country, dinner or some drinks. The thing to remember is that maps are adults, so this is adults meeting adults, there's nothing illegal there or particularly controversial. Law enforcement doesn't care because there's no crime being committed and that tiny group of people known as pedo hunters are trying to make names for themselves by luring pedo's to meet kids for sex. It would be a non-story, really pretty dull to catch a pedo adult meeting another pedo adult for dinner.

Or look at the age play scene. Join a fetish community such as Fetlife or the countless other dating sites that support fetishes and there's always age play and daddy/daughter roleplay groups and they regularly meet in person at events. There's one that I know runs around 30 minutes drive from me, it's a monthly fetish night all about age play, adults go to that club and get their kinks on. If you have all these age players freely meeting up to role play underage scenes with no problems or cares, why would a pedo meeting a pedo for dinner really be that shocking or scary?

I've met plenty of pedo's and formed good friendships and I've never had any problems. I know others have been meeting maps for decades without problems. I think the fear is greater than the reality in most cases. Are there pedo hunters out there? Yes, but not that many really and they are hunting pedo's meeting kids for sex which is a bigger story. If someone did lure a pedo out for dinner then what are they gaining? Where's the story? Meet somewhere far away from home and neutral, if they didn't know who you were before then they won't know you from meeting you any more.

Now in my case, most maps I've met and made friends with has been introduced to me, so there's an element of trust already established. A few exceptions have been maps I've just got to know well over time and we have enough other stuff in common that we've met up socially. But they're never super local, the nearest map friend of mine is at least 4 hours drive away.

I support to answer your question about finding local maps I might consider several approaches.

1. Tap into those age play communities that meet at clubs and have their own little networks. I'm sure at least some are maps even if they prefer to say they're not maps, they're just people who enjoy having sexual fantasies about kids

2. Perhaps consider connecting to local universities or organisations with some connection to maps. Universities often have LGBTQ+ organisations, perhaps reach out to them and introduce your local map support group so if they encounter any maps they could give them contact details for the support group. So it's a way for the LGBTQ+ organisation to direct maps away from them but to somewhere supportive still. Or local legal firms or therapists who deal with maps. So it's a map support group that helps maps in practical ways, it could be finding work, somewhere to live or just meeting other maps socially to build a friend and support network.