Re: Pedologues
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2024 8:22 pm
by Strato
episode 9 slimmed down to 9655 characters from circa 10,800 without loss of context:
Pedologues Episode 9 (20 November 2005) Rookiee, Fallen, Buddy Christ, Amigo, and Howard
Introductions.
Howard is an on-line writer and his website cerius.org is entitled “A personal statement website on paedophile life and politics.” Website explains who I am, and why I feel the way this issue is handled today is dead wrong. Even some US communities exist that believe children need a healthy attitude towards sexuality, but today’s culture squelches that opinion terribly. Amigo: oppression not confined to the US; it pervades much of the west. (01:30 to 07:04)
Double standards.
Fallen: case in Georgia of a 15yo boy marrying a 37yo woman. Work colleagues commented the woman must be the most disgusting person out there. If one swapped the genders, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, so double standards persist. Rookiee: the case of a 14yo involved with his hot 20yo English teacher, and the media saying: Damn, I wish my teacher was like that when I was at school. If they were male, they would be labelled a monster. Another case involved a woman who had sex with teenagers, got a 30-year sentence. Fallen: these are essentially victimless crimes. Taxpayer money to imprison these offenders must be astronomic over that time, and society does not benefit. Howard: not to mention the damage to the boys, from ridicule, or a possible custodial sentence. Two more age-difference cases where the woman was older: Demi Moore and Mary Kay Letourneau. (07:05 to 13:04)
Sex is bad.
Buddy Christ: the dynamic of my first intimacy with someone younger was opposite, as I was not the instigator. I tend to acquiesce rather than play a lead role. Rookie: how old were you when on your first experience? Howard: 17yo with woman who solicited me; it was a one-off. No earlier experience due to illegality of such activity. I urgently wanted to lose my virginity by then. How much better if I had been with others willing to teach me, rather than jumping at this ugly bitch on my 17th birthday. (13:05 to 16:44)
Children’s rights.
Rookiee: I disagree with those saying children should have no rights. They should have both rights and protections, for example, deciding what to do with their own body. In Mexico 12yo kids in rural areas drive vehicles, so they become an asset within farming communities. In California, legal restrictions mean youth have no clue how to drive until 18. The parallel with a child’s experience of sex is relevant, for example: prevented from having a loving encounter with another human being. George Carlin: “They have to wear helmets for everything except jacking off.” (16:45 to 18:44)
Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
Buddy Christian: A reason why society is against teenage sex is STD threat. His mother is in medicine, and observes 17 year-olds already diagnosed with full HIV. When society creates a taboo subject by calling it a social disease, and refuses to educate the young, problems will arise. A virus doesn’t care who it targets; if your defences are down, it will likely attack you. (18:45 to 21:09)
Circumcision I.
Buddy Christian: a lot of US males are circumcised, and the fact that glans are exposed 24/7 inevitably makes it less sensitive. Rookiee: mentioned having experience with someone who was uncircumcised. It was evident just how sensitive it can be down there. Amigo: in New Zealand, hardly any male is circumcised. At school, one boy was circumcised, and all his peers were checking him out as it was so unusual. Buddy Christian: How much is a plane ticket to New Zealand? (21:10 to 22:36)
New Zealand consent law.
Amigo: New Zealand Reform Act states that a boy can make the decision to have sex at age 12. However, age of consent there is 16. If a boy between 12 and 16 reports an instance of “abuse” more than a year afterwards, there are no grounds for arrest and charging. So, the authorities believe a child of 12 can say yes to sex, but is dissuaded from doing so by law. (22:37 to 24:54)
Outdated laws.
Rookiee: As society mores change, laws fail to keep pace. Many US laws are more than fifty years old. Fallen: notes that the constitution has sufficient elasticity for interpretation. Rookiee: When the constitution was written, everyone adhered to the moral code within the bible. Society has since replaced a puritanical lifestyle with a hedonistic one. Sodomy case and the banning of gay marriage in Texas reflect a puritan majority there. Civil rights ought to be based on fairness and equality; it should never be left to the majority vote because minorities will always lose out. Benjamin Franklin: ‘Democracy should be more than two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb.’ The more liberty exists, the more one can fight the popular vote. Buddy Christian: Thomas Jefferson: ‘People who give up liberty for security deserve neither’. Howard: Immigrants came to the US in the first place to escape religious persecution. Rookiee: the rules they established turned out to be more oppressive than the ones they were fleeing from. (24:55 to 31:24)
Circumcision II.
Howard: Involved in paedophilia as a political issue for seven years, yet never thought too much about circumcision topic. I now conclude circumcision is a terrible act of torture on a defenceless child, and legalised sexual abuse. Many boys in the US have had their genitals mutilated. The screams that an infant utters during the procedure, tells you they really don’t like it, but that is the only way they can voice their refusal to consent. Society has forgotten why they do it. Religious people say if Jesus did it, we must do it too, so it continues. Medics of course profit, and so claim it is for the child’s own good. Rookiee: the sacred Jewish tradition historically to circumvent male infibulation by Israel’s enemies such as Romans. Howard highlights the resistance to outlawing circumcision. Even his own mother, who agreed to circumcise her son, claims the child feels no pain. She believes it is absolutely fine to chop off the end of an infant’s penis. But for a person to go and gently caress that penis whilst the child experiences pleasure, is a sin worthy of putting someone away forever. Puritan belief: sex solely comprises the missionary-position for procreation. (31:25 to 39:04)
Gay.com story.
Howard: a 50 year old guy hooked up and had a conversation in chat room, asking about my chat room bio line: interested in boys. I confirmed yes. The guy was shocked, and asked why a boy would want a man of my age? I replied, an older male has knowledge and wisdom that is very attractive to a boy. The guy said, like ancient Greece? No, like throughout history, but now opposed by a rabidly oppressive culture. He was clearly disapproving, yet I did not back down. I got him to think about the subject in ways he had never done before. After, I felt proud of myself and considered it to be a small act of resistance and activism. Amigo: when you explain your attraction, it is possible to gain some understanding from your listener. (39:05 to 47:44)
Boylover boyhood experiences.
Amigo: Knew I was a boylover at 13yo, but also knew I was not gay. All I heard via radio was that boylovers were monsters that hurt children. Gay then meant being into peers and older. Buddy Christian: knew I was attracted to the smaller boys at school, but did not feel I was a stereotypical gay, even though I questioned myself continuously. Fallen: When I was 8, I was attracted to a 7yo neighbour. I really wanted to see him in as little clothing as possible. One day I went up to him and pantsed him; he was in shock, got angry and tackled me. Fallen: By 12 the attraction was fully developed and I had an 8yo friend with benefits. In parallel, I had a huge crush on a girl at school who promptly left the area. Amigo: Girls were the thing up to 12, but recall an experience whilst camping when a peer jumped on me then began to feel me up. I was like ‘get off you faggot!’ A year later, I knew me better, and kicked myself for reacting the way I did. Buddy Christian: I am attracted to red-haired boys. One time a 11yo red-head class mate slept over. He asked whether we could sleep naked, but I said no, probably fearing he had a bigger penis than I did. I kick myself to this day for saying no. Rookiee: When 12 there was a 13yo who was so crushed on me. All my classmates knew he was gay, but I didn’t. Meanwhile I was crushed on an 11yo who was crushed on the 13yo. Piggy in the middle didn’t benefit from this triangle one bit, due to shyness and telling myself I was straight. I also kick myself to this day for lacking courage. (47:45 to 01:02:08)
Being kept ignorant.
Howard: I felt ashamed and embarrassed when experiencing erections from 8yo on. I consider that I was sexually molested as a child by having my sexuality denied me, meaning being prevented from learning about my body and how to enjoy it. Instead, I was trained to be ashamed of it, told it was bad, and to cover it up because the book of Genesis said so. At the time, I was locked into that terrible perspective. (01:02:09 to 01:05:36)
Impact of religion.
Amigo: What is the impact of religion on US kids in the US? Rookiee: Depends on your location, your situation, your family. Fallen: I have always been in religious schools, and all it does is breed sexual addicts. Rookiee: Whatever you make taboo becomes an obsession. They teach you sex education, then tell you not to do it. Amigo: New Zealand schools are not allowed to teach any distinct religious ideas. Buddy Christian: It would benefit the US if they actually took the Ten Commandments and followed them. (01:05:37 to 01:12:27)
Re: Pedologues
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2024 9:55 pm
by Strato
Pedologues Episode 11 (28 November 2005) Rookiee, Jason, and Boy Story
Introductions.
Jason: I am 15 and on the show because I know a guest from the previous show, plus I want to start a boylover revolution. Rookiee: how are you going to do that? Jason: communicate the fact with everyone you know. (01:42 to 03:59)
Crossing the line.
Rookiee: what is a boylover? Jason: someone who cares about boys, who finds them attractive, but doesn’t act upon their desires. Kissing and cuddling is fine, but once you get into their pants, it becomes a problem because a line is crossed. Rookiee: are you worried about getting into the pants from a legal or moral perspective? Jason: I am referring to an innocent boy here. Boy Story: at what point can they know they want to do something, and at what point can they know it would be OK to do something? Jason: they have to know what they are getting into. (04:00 to 06:37)
Little boy lover.
Jason: I am into boys aged 3 to 7. Rookiee: being into 9 plus, I don’t see how a relationship with such a young age range can bring anything at all. Jason: maybe because I am still young myself, plus at that young age they are not so adversarial. I am into the emotional aspect rather than the physical. Age of attraction is not a fixed thing; one can still be attracted to older boys in certain circumstances. Rookiee: aware of a person who is essentially asexual because empathetic pleasure trumps physical attraction for them. Jason: and then there is the domain of fetishism. (06:38 to 11:29)
Is paedophilia a fetish?
Rookiee: How do you define a fetish? I know of a couple who have about 150 wigs, and the wife has to wear a wig for the guy to get an erection. Boy Story: a sexuality classification occurs when a significant percentage of a population have a physiological response to a given stimuli. If you showed an image of a nude adolescent male to a large sample of men, a significant proportion of them would become aroused. Such a large response indicates a discrete sexual attraction, not a fetish. Rookiee: Kinsey investigated human sexuality and devised a Kinsey scale from 0 to 6, where zero was no attraction, and six was full attraction. (11:30 to 13:59)
GL v BL friction.
Rookie: noticed animosity between a minority of girl lovers and boy lovers within the online community, claiming they are not alike. The majority have no problem and believe the two factions goals are the same. Both communities should be channelling their efforts into mentoring children regardless of what gender the child happens to be, in every aspect of their lives. (14:00 to 16:24)
Born gay?
Jason: do you believe you were born gay or have you learnt it along the way? Boy Story: Jason, when did you realise you were gay? Jason: 12. Rookiee: there is a difference between homosexual and gay. Gay is a lifestyle; homosexual is your sexual orientation. There is also a difference between paedophile and boylover. In answer to your original question, my realisation that I was into boys slowly evolved between 10 and 12. Boy Story: at around 5 years old I realised I wanted to be around males, not females. I believe prior to puberty or before one’s first sexual experience, it is unlikely a child will even comprehend the concept of sexual attraction. (16:25 to 26:09)
Learning about sex.
Rookiee: what age did you learn about sex? Jason: at age 8. I heard noise from my parent’s bedroom and thought my mother was being beaten up, so I opened their door and walked in on them. My father shouted at me to leave the room, but I started crying and he came out to console me. He then gave the lowdown on the birds and the bees. Rookiee: the earlier children learn about sex, the more they will be able to deal with related events as they grow older. However, warnings of stranger danger make it difficult for older people to teach this subject to children. Boy Story raises the topic of the counselling work he did in Los Angeles, and which he talked about in episode 10, when he was perceived by parents to be a threat to the kids he was giving advice to, because of stranger danger fear. The advice he gave, is now being given by student peers, no older than 16. (26:10 to 31:29)
Consent age minefield.
Rookiee: society is more accepting of gay youth. Even so, a rocky path awaits all mutually attracted kids. 13yo plus 13yo is acceptable, but 16yo plus 12yo – can’t do that. Recalls in high school a teacher telling a 17yo plus 18yo, you two can’t have sex because you will go to jail. Boy Story: a high school couple, the guy at 15 was eight months older than the girl. The girl’s parents didn’t like the boy. The couple were sexually active up to the point the boy turned 18. Thereafter each time the boy came over, the parents recorded the fact the couple made love. Four months later the boy was arrested and charged with more than thirty counts of statutory rape. His sentence was 25 years to life, with no parole. (26:10 to 36:19)
Define rape.
Boy Story: California law: child molestation charges levied below the age of 14. Between the ages of 14 and 18, illegal intercourse charges levied – it used to be called statutory rape. Females cannot be charged with rape, so it is a one-way crime; no convictions have occurred in the US. Rape: the unwanted act perpetrated by a male on a female. (36:20 to 40:19)
Define child.
Boy Story: anyone who is attracted to a child, no matter how one defines child, is a paedophile. By California society’s norm, that means any one under the age of consent. Rookiee: but increasingly news stories report about sex crimes against children between the ages of 12 and 17. But a 17yo is not a child. Boy Story: they are in the eyes of the law. Society says that a child younger the age of 14 does not have the mental wherewithal to consent. I personally think that that is bullshit. Such crimes rank at a higher level of felonious activity. Rookiee: if we are to make any progress, we really have to clarify terms. (40:20 to 45:46)
Information age.
Rookiee: Society has come a long way since before the industrial revolution when interpersonal communication prevailed, boys were part of the labour force, and there were no age of consent laws. Some claim we are well beyond the machine age and even beyond the computer age, both of which promoted impersonal communication. We are now entering the information age, and it may just be that the social pendulum swings back to the way things were prior to the industrial age. (45:47 to 54:04)
Pedologues Episode 12 (3 December 2005) Rookiee, and Boy Story
Waffle. (01:30 to 05:24)
Why Pedologues?
Boy Story: what made you decide to do these podcasts? Rookiee: main reason is that my life was shaping up to fall short of attaining its full potential. I cannot legally enjoy my sexuality because of the status quo forced upon me by society, and that situation has the potential to cause me a nervous breakdown. Earlier this year I contemplated suicide. This led to several months of introspection and an effort to change the course of my life, which wasn’t going in any direction. I was pissed off, and me and Abraxas decided to do these deep conversation podcasts. (05:25 to 10:09)
Reason for question.
Boy Story: I asked you the question for a reason, and the answer I got was pretty much as expected. I think yours is a common problem for people of our ilk. Some adjust their lives by going out and molesting. Others adjust by going out and doing something positive about their situation. Rookiee: since there are so many people out there that are lost and wallowing in their own turmoil, chances are they will take the road to nowhere. I admit, I was headed in the wrong direction, but once I turned 19 and found the internet, that is when I discovered similar people to myself. That is when my life began to change. Boy Story: I can admit to taking the wrong path for part of my life, but somehow I managed to change for the better, and in my case the positive has been shifting the direction of the life of others for the better. That makes me feel I have done the world a great service. (10:10 to 14:18)
Positive correspondence.
Rookiee: email received today. They heard my podcast and they realised they weren’t the only one out there. The podcast made them think, and as a result, they don’t feel so alone any more. Boy Story: I mentioned in episode 10, about the correspondence I receive in connection with my Nifty LGB erotic story writing. Several correspondents say they have experienced similar situations and emotional feelings that as portrayed within the stories and can really identify with the characters in the stories. (14:19 to 15:05)
Nifty.org (15:06 to 19:19)
Inherent criminality.
Rookiee: I have noticed some podcasts are taking hits whilst on the air. Free speech is being replaced by what is deemed acceptable. Boy Story: you have to realise our topic is on the fringes of acceptability. Rookiee: people find what we are into and find attractive, inherently criminal and evil. Why? I am not going to hurt anyone. Pre-conceived notions, ignorance, dis-information via the media because it sells copy, etc. Boy Story: some perspective. Fifty years ago there was Joseph McCarthy and the big evil: communism. We are the modern-day communists. Human societies have always had their witch hunts, and right now our community is living in a police state. People are being frowned upon, simply for having friendships. Rookie: a culture of fear. (19:20 to 22:32)
Reporting a paedophile.
Boy Story: If I told you I lived close to a school, and stood on a corner watching the kids as they leave. There was one cute kid I was attracted to, and tomorrow I intended to take him to my apartment and molest him, what would you do? If it was me, without a doubt, I would turn me in. Rookiee: it all depends on the person’s intentions. Boy Story: we are talking about an 8 or 9yo here, and I am determined to take him to bed. I would report me immediately in this situation. Rookiee: right now, our whole community is being turned in. Boy Story: society has a habit of generalising. Back in the seventies when I was a young friend, homosexuals were labelled child molesters. We all know that is bullshit. It took some effort on the part of the gay community at that time to distance itself from the stigma. (22:33 to 24:44)
NAMBLA
Boy Story: I bought into the hype at the time when NAMBLA was formed as a distinct entity quite separate from the homosexual community. I came to believe the phrase ‘sex by eight or it’s too late’ was a tenet of NAMBLA, when in reality it came from another organisation: The René Guyon Society. NAMBLA from what I know promotes boylove in its purest form. Rookiee: I was also under the impression NAMBLA was an organisation all about getting kids into bed. Society helped this notion along by creating negative parodies, such as the skit in South Park. Even I fell into the trap of being led to believe the propaganda. (24:45 to 28:59)
CL community rift.
Rookie: I mainly discuss boylover-related topics. I don’t know many girl-lovers, but that shouldn’t stop me from talking about it. What I am noticing is a growing rift between the two communities. Boy Story: what we should recognise is that we are all child lovers, and that we are all experiencing the exact same prejudices. If anything, boy lovers are subjected to way-more prejudice due to the homosexual dimension. Rookiee: David Riegel is of the view that the two communities are so different that boy lovers should focus exclusively on boy love issues. First, there are insufficient of us to effect change. Second, united we stand, divided we fall. Boy Story: change starts with a small number of people taking the initiative, like the black community in the southern US. I can only hope more than just the child love community listens to Pedologues. Rookiee: previous podcast attempts have resulted in being closed down because of the perceived questionable, offensive content. (29:00 to 33:42)
Homosexual community rift.
Boy Story: we have been discussing the mainstream prejudices afflicting the child-lover community. However, we also have to put up with negative sentiment coming from the much of the adult homosexual world too. I got into a prolonged fight on Nifty.org with an individual who identifies as gay and who enjoys the company of 18+ males, as to whether paedos should be allowed to write stories on the site. I asked: what age is appropriate to you? ‘18’ was the response. Why? ‘Because it is the law’. And if the law said 12, would that be acceptable? ‘Yes’ was the response. I told him, if that is what you truly think, then I hope you never have sex with anyone. (33:43 to 35:32)
Repression and fear.
Boy Story: if governments increase repression, they simultaneously increase fear. US society as a whole is significantly more oppressed than at any time since it was first created. We can’t do half of the things it was once perfectly fine for us to do. When I grew up, we never locked our doors. No-one thought twice about a 7 or 8yo boy setting off from home and walking to the mall on his own. This 180 degree change has not been brought about by the sudden appearance of child lovers. There is likely to be just as many as before, but due to the discrimination heaped upon them today, they maintain a closeted profile. (35:33 to 39:46)
Podcast feeback.
Rookiee: some people might accuse us of having a criminal conversation. Boy Story: but we are exercising our first amendment right to have a discussion on topics that just happen to focus on illegal acts. Rookiee: has encountered podcast criticism classifying him as a white supremacist claiming that paedophilia is hate speech. On the other side of the coin, he has also received supportive feedback from correspondents who are not part of the community. Receiving such support means that the podcasts are worth the effort. (39:47 to 45:35)
Podcast benefits.
Boy Story: Aqua’s wish was to change the world, but I would be ecstatic if, through my podcast contribution, I managed to change the minds of only a few to the benefit of our community. I have been a boy lover since 1979, consciously knowing that I am attracted to boys. Had there been a resource like this available from the early 1980s, just think what a change that could have wrought over that time. I know of several boy lovers who, over twenty years and more, have never had any contact with boys due to the status quo. (45:36 to 47:58)
Wherewithal to consent.
Rookiee: there is no way I could achieve gratification in the knowledge that a sexual encounter with a minor had been anything less than mutual. Boy Story: repeat question from earlier episodes, at what point does a child have the wherewithal to consent? Rookiee: a variable number that can never be quantified due to the arbitrary nature of the level of maturity versus the age of that child. (47:59 to 50:29)
Perceived intent.
Rookie: when I was at the Portable Media Expo, I saw someone who was really damn cute on two occasions, and I whispered that fact into the microphone which was then broadcast within episode 8. I was then accused on the forums of stalking. Boy Story: only goes to show that people will bend reality to confirm their prejudices. Rookiee: if anyone else from any other sexual persuasion said that about anyone else, it would have been perfectly fine. If I had said I like a man in uniform – perfectly fine. If I had said I like a schoolboy in uniform – chaos. They are automatically assuming my intent, even if my intent was positive, they would construe it negatively. Boy Story: I recall when in cub scouts aged 9, a 20’s something scout told me I looked good in my uniform. People back then would think nothing of such a comment. Rookiee: someone, who was a youth counsellor, nearly got fired for commenting how cute a boy looked while asleep, implying the little darlings are now asleep, so we can at last have some peace and quiet. Boy Story: and yet it is fine for people to comment on how adorable a child looks. (50:30 to 56:54)
Pedologues contact details. (56:55 to 59:56)
Pedologues Episode 13 TAKEN DOWN
Pedologues Episode 14 (30 December 2005) Rookiee, Boy Story, Ashley, Jack (SQIR), and Chubby
Jack's message.
Thank you Rookiee for making episode 12 in a public space - a restaurant. I heard about the Xmas podcast taken off because of “offensive material”. You are exercising your first amendment right to free speech. That is what is great about America where we can exercise our rights, so long as it doesn’t infringe upon the rights of people, or break any other laws. Your comment about our culture being enslaved by fear is true, and I think that fear comes from the media. The opinions of broadcaster such as Fox and CNN create a pull on people, especially at election time. The accusation of you stalking a boy at the Portable Media Expo, just demonstrates how unstable people can be if everything they see or hear has a sexual intention. (00:00 to 03:37)
Waffle. (03:38 to 08:01)
Bibcam boy.
New York Times article about a boy that had been doing bibcams since he was 13 years old. Bibcam boy is a boy posing or stripping online. He made thousands of dollars from people paying for his recordings. He had roughly 1500 customers by the end. Boy Story: he started off in chatrooms. One correspondent said he would give him twenty dollars to take off his shirt. The correspondent set up a PayPal account for him, and introduced other punters, which then progressed from taking off his shirt, to no clothes, to masturbating, to having sex with others on camera. It was not prostitution, because the punters were voyeurs. Rookiee: I have no problem with that from a moral perspective. (08:02 to 12:49)
Double standards.
Rookiee: a 13yo and a 10yo recently got busted for entering someone’s house and stealing items. The article called them young children. The 13yo is not a child; he is a teenager. The article used spin to give the story more sensationalism. Boy Story: the legal system in some instances, try 10 and 11yo children as if they were adults. (08:02 to 14:45)
Introductions 1.
Boy Story: from episodes 9 and 10. Ashley: 31yo heard of SQIR through Pedologues, and I heard of Pedologues through boylover.net. Currently working with Boy Story on creating a comic strip called Little Ash, to show pictorially what boy love is about. Rookiee: how far are you going to go with it? Ashley: quite far, but focus will be on the nature of boy love. How did you find out about SQR, Chubby? Chubby: known Geoff Gold since 2002, so known SQR for a year now. I was on Bliss for a few months, then BoyLovers United opened. Aidan Gorey asked me to join, and I was there for two months when he asked me to be a moderator of the main forum of valley of dreams. Problems with the BoyLovers United forum subsequently, meant I decided to step down. In the meantime I have been on various boards and chatrooms, including SQIR. (14:46 to 22:37)
South Africa scene.
Rookiee: how does Apartheid and the dynamic of South Africa’s society impact the boylove community in that country? Chubby: the gay community is quite sizeable in the Western Cape and in Cape Town. The age of consent is 16. However, if you are older than 19, it is illegal to have sex with someone younger than yourself, to keep mutual intimacy at the peer level. I have been brought up to be racially pure, so I would never in my heart, be able to have a relationship with a black girl. Boy Story: during the years of segregation in America’s south, racism was taught to white children. The same is true of South Africa. Chubby: agreed. (22:38 to 34:09)
Introductions 2.
Jack: Boylinks.net brought me here when they posted the SQIR on their front page in November. I do a podcast – see Jack message above. (34:10 to 36:39)
Parent boylover.
Rookiee: I have a friend who is a parent and a boylover. He would never want to see his child behaving sexually towards anyone, even though he is sexually attracted to boys. There is a conflict there because he has an instinctive need to protect his child. Ashley: parents treat their children as if they are property. Chubby: one of my young friends, a boy of 14, arrived home late. The boy’s room was an annex to the main house. His father wondered why his son was late and didn’t stop by to say good night. He went to the boy’s room which was in dark. He told the boy to step into the house for a chat. The father then gave him a talk about AIDs, using a condom, and how dangerous it all is. He added, just remember, you can do what you want, but please protect yourself. Rookiee: to me that sounds sensible and caring. (36:40 to 43:49)
Pedologues Episode 15 (15 January 2006) Rookiee, Jim, and Boy Story.
Introduction.
Jim: My home is Boy Chat. I have been around for ten years doing various projects, the main one is Free Spirits. (00:44 to 01:04)
Boy Chat genesis.
Jim: Boy Chat since 1995, was one of the first chat boards and an early web-chat board on the internet. It was developed as pro script by Matt Wright as a teen. From the outside it looks the same as always, but inside it is custom-coded and bullet-proof. It was an informal project on Kasper’s site, but it got too big for him to manage. After several iterations, I took on associate web-master role. It was hosted on a Digiweb server. My site FPC, was hosted on the same server, as was Boy Links, Boy Right, Freedom Board, plus assorted other boy love community resources. (01:05 to 04:49)
Free Spirits.
Jim: in 1997, admin emailed us to say we had 14 days to find a new server. Their policy changed, no longer hosting boy content. Panic ensued. The Web was new, and few servers existed. I had my own computer business and took time off to pursue those who could fund plus those with solutions. I rallied the community via Boy Chat. Free Spirits was formed and I chaired the committee. We pulled all boy lover resources together, and paid for them. Our goal: to have our own internet service provider, our own server, and our own independence. For the next year, we jumped from server to server, each time being kicked off. Once our goals were met, I was burnt out. I passed my webmaster role on to others. FPC.net was originally my own website, but this too was incorporated into Free Spirits. It is now run by Kalos. (04:50 to 11:39)
Media experience I.
My lover Lenny was older than me and ill. I had been webmaster for a year. A new poster arrived in the Boy Chat community. He asked to meet in New York City where I was based. I agreed. I met him, took him out for drinks and dinner, and we talked. He seemed a reasonable boy lover. I returned to my apartment, and found Lenny was having problems. I took him to hospital, and finally checked him in to a room some hours later. I hadn’t eaten, shaved, or changed. I rang the guy and agreed to meet at his hotel. I phoned him from reception, but it took forever for him to come down. This was an expensive plush hotel, and I looked distinctly scummy. At last the elevator doors opened, and there he is in suit and tie, trailed by a camera crew. The nice guy from Boy Chat was not a boy lover at all, but a TV reporter from Florida. With camera in my face, he asked challenging questions with negative spin. I answered as positively as I could, then left. By the way, whilst together the previous evening, he had a hidden camera plus microphone in his lapel, recording all we discussed. (11:40 to 16:28)
Media experiences II and III.
Jim: I was contacted by a major news organisation, maybe ’20 20 tv’, sometime after the Florida TV experience. They wanted to do a story on Boy Chat and Free Spirits. I spent an hour on the phone with the producer, but nothing came of it. The only other experience was the Bill Moyers show. They did an hour long piece ‘paedophiles on the internet’. The focused on Free Spirits, and made false statements which were libellous. I contacted the producers, and offered to come on the show to debate the things they had said, but they declined. Clearly, they didn’t want anyone pointing out the blatant falsehoods. (16:29 to 19:59)
Child advocates.
Jim: ‘child advocates’ is a misnomer; they are really in it for self-glory. Rookiee: an advocate should have professional credentials. Rookiee then raises the Wikipedia editing topic discussed in episode 7, and the political bias creeping into the content of Wikipedia entries. (20:00 to 23:59)
Being outed I.
Rookiee: vigilante case regarding the site rikijo.blogspot.com with title ‘alt.hackers.malicious the war against NAMBLA’. The site began by outing NAMBLA members, but expanded its operation to include any boy lover. They targeted a 14yo boy attracted to his peers and younger. Jim: just devastating that it happens, and so often. Important for young boy lovers to be outspoken and to communicate, but we must watch out for them and inform them of the dangers. This kid was outed from the personal details on his website. Youngsters can be vocal, but they also have to be careful. Rookiee: agree completely. The boy was attracted to a 12yo, and for that he was outed as a predator. Who is the predator here? (24:00 to 28:26)
Being outed II.
Jim: I recall a case ten years ago when a young teen boy lover on Boy Chat was outed in a similar way. His web page was up, and links led to links. It was easy to figure out his identity. The police got involved and the kid was sentenced to youth detention and mandatory therapy. His teen years turned into a nightmare. That is just one example of so many I know. There are dozens more vigilantes out there revelling in the ruination of others. (28:27 to 34:15)
Gay youth.
Jim: it is really important to bring gay youth together, people who love love, but we have to do it responsibly. If we just get burnt, no progress will be made. All we will have done is screwed up a bunch of lives. We have to strategise, plan and know what we are doing. Rookiee: the more gay youth get involved, the bigger the hole punched into the stereotype: ‘paedophilia is the domain of a bunch of old male predators’. Jim: we must educate gay youth to keep their boy love life separate from all other stuff. (34:16 to 38:59)
Media-supported vigilantism.
Jim: in the case of the 14yo, it would be ironic if the vigilante got the wrong kid. Rookiee: what this vigilante was doing was not criminal. However, he could be sued for libel as he is defaming people for what they say, not what they do. Jim: I read my local paper and a child molestation story is reported: ‘so and so admitted to a specific action, so and so admitted to the crime of paedophilia’, as if having those feelings was itself a crime. (39:00 to 40:14)
Sexual orientation construction.
Jim: hot topic on Boy Chat of late: maybe it is not a good idea to categorise sexual identity. Isn’t it better to live in a world and just love people for what they are? Rookiee: but we need to self-identify as a community. Jim: it’s only when you add the construction that a dilemma arises. How would we find support, plus a sense of community, without self-identity. Yet, the very construction of an identity creates problems. If the concept of boy love didn’t exist, would the hysteria be nearly as high? Some would say no. When I was a young gay teen, the concept of boy love wasn’t a category. I was termed chicken hawk as part of the gay construct. (40:15 to 43:19)
Sexual orientation changes.
Jim: I have been struck chatting with younger boy lovers, how attraction changes over time. No-one stays the same. Rookiee: the community should refrain from claiming their own age of attraction trumps everyone else’s. If that happens, fractures will develop, and the mainstream will jump on that weakness. Jim: my ideal society, perhaps not perfect, would be one where sexual orientation really didn’t matter. If that were to happen, many of us would not be so focused on age of attractions. (43:20 to 46:31)
Unachievable fulfilment.
Jim: on Boy Chat, many express concern that they will never be able to attain fulfilment. In the absence of romantic love, they overtly focus on this fear, and ignore the myriad other aspects of life to be enjoyed. Someone who does not suffer societal condemnation, is free to appreciate everything around him. Rookiee: by discriminating, society has managed to create a whole group of inward-looking suppressed individuals who have ceased to function effectively. The way sexuality is dealt with in Western societies is quite flawed. (46:32 to 49:04)
Arabic boylove poetry.
Jim: have you ever read Arabic poetry from the Middle Ages? Absolutely gorgeous. There was a time in certain parts of the Muslim world, when love of boys was considered a very high ideal. Even though homosexuality is frowned upon by Islam, there have been epochs when it was celebrated. Rookiee: I am intrigued. (49:05 to 50:04)
Syndication.
Rookiee speaks about online syndication, and the need for a single portal providing a central reference point for boy lovers. Jim: what is syndication? I can’t see how this concept differs from what is already available, for example Boy Lover Links and Boy Links. What is more important, is concentrating on content, and improve the things we fail to do well, like presenting information. (50:05 to 56:12)
Define boy lover.
Boy Story: what makes a boy lover a boy lover? Jim: of all the definitions I have come across, the one put forward by Alexis is probably the best. ‘A boy lover is a person who tends to fall in love with boys.’ Rookiee: what is your definition of a boy? Jim: I prefer not to limit myself to definitions. Rookiee: Kinsey said it best, we are all different. Boy Story: I am chatting to a new boy lover, and I tried to define what boy love is. In my mind, boy love is having such a love of younger males whereby you place their needs for love, companionship and nurturing, ahead of your own. Jim: to an extent I would agree, but I wouldn’t restrict such a definition to selfless love, because sometimes one makes mistakes, so it doesn’t always work out that way. (56:13 to 59:34)
No ideal boy lover
Rookiee: Boy love is an ideal we need to work up to. Jim: no, I don’t agree. Rookiee: Well, a boy lover is not a child molester. To educate the general public, we need to define what a boy lover isn’t. Jim: by who’s definition? I reject the notion that an ideal boy lover exists with boundaries beyond which someone is not a boy lover. If a boundary is something he did wrong, then that doesn’t mean he loses his boy lover status. Love is important, beauty is important, and should be celebrated. Does it really matter what gender a person is, or what age a person is? No. (59:35 to 01:06:39)