MAP Forum

Scorchingwilde wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2026 1:16 am So, I often worry that in the end collectivist ideals will also end up propagating bigotry and eugenics. I once watched a video about why an insect 'king' wouldn't work biologically, and was deeply shocked and horrified to learn that bees that live in hives systemically murder intersex larvae. When I consider my own immutable identities, of which being a hebephile, being a MAP, and being transgender and having some flavor of an asocial personality (not aggressive, but also deeply uninvested in socializing outside of partners and kids) is one of them.

I'm skeptical of my ability to live authentically without enduring unbearable pain or death under any kind of collectivism system, despite being a socialist. I used to believe very strong in anarcho-communism, with flexibility for adjacent ideas. Even Anti-MAP anarcho-communists, who I still consider myself to be in some ways, when they describe a far off ideal future, continue to describe adult minor relationships as inherently violent. The hypocritical ones will fantasize about doing violence to us, but even the 'nice' ones describe ways to use social pressure and 'community support' to keep us celibate and alone. It often sounds like the anti-gay Christian vision of what heaven would be for people who are gay in this life, where we're never allowed to be with our partners and anyone who made it to heaven despite being in a committed queer relationship would be separated from them and 'cleansed of that forgivable sin' so they wouldn't care and magically be happy. Whether the collectivist framework that emerges in liberalism's collapse is merciful and good to others (socialism, communism) or hierarchical and deadly to others (fascism), my sex life is going to be hell.

My own position is a bit strange, I don't know what I would be if I didn't do MAP activism, probably a Marxist-Leninist with a lot of heterodox ideas/positions. At the end of the day, my only allegiance is to the MAP cause as much as I might care about other causes or have opinions on what I think humanity's next step is. Marxism does inform the critical theory I create and my political outlook heavily but at the end of the day my sole priority and allegiance is to the MAP cause. I decided that MAP activism would be my sole avenue of activism and I don't intend to break that promise to myself any time soon. Why did I decide that? I felt that anyone can be a dimestore Lenin or something but MAPs don't have many people fighting them for them and of those few brave enough to do so many are lacking in intellectual and political talent.

And don't get me wrong its not wholly selfless but im not exclusive and could hypothetically "mask" for lack of a better term and simply never have gotten involved. In some ways, it might have been better for me personally if i never had but thats another story... overall I'm satisfied and my biggest regret is I couldn't do more for the community than what I've done.

Someone else might have to do it but to me it wouldn't feel right to work for and contribute to any anti-MAP organization. I am firmly of the opinion that MAPs involved in politics should not lend their talents to anti-MAP groups however much they align. We've seen the fruit of trying to move the particular group in question and regardless of where MAPs sit on the spectrum it hasn't been good. I don't preach absention but there are a lot of talented MAPs out there and one thing that political orgs need is manpower. I think its a form of leverage the movement by and large hasn't tried to utilize but again to me it doesn't feel right to help an anti-MAP group in any capacity regardless of how much I agree on other things.

Social democracies seemed to be even worse in this regard than neoliberal governments until recently, where both have become terrible

It wasn't always like this imo in the 60s and 70s social democratic governments were more likely to be better on issues like MAPs, trans, gay, etc. but there has been a shift. The most difficult aspect of being a primarily MAP-focused activist is that I know that stuff like high inequality or inadequate employment and wages is a major reason why people clam up about this, they want childhood to be a safe space in a world where adult life gets worse and worse. Back when Western countries were more equal than they are presently there was more tolerance for adults and kids/teens playing around sexually and the willingness to let that line be blurred is probably not unrelated to the level of economic inequality or at the very least the perception of it.

I presume you are talking about Europe here when you say recently and I will say that Europe is generally 10-20 years behind the US from what I can tell when it comes to various trends. It does seem like on some level the US is abandoning neoliberalism as Europe actually digs itself deeper into it. For instance, the scandinvanian social democraciies are privatizing/monetizing many of their welfare services to help put cash in the hands of its private sector whereas the American right no long LARPs as a free market fundamentalist movement and there's a big push within the democratic party to scrap neoliberalism altogether. There was a greater expansion of social aid per person in the US during the pandemic than in 1. any other developed country 2. than what the US has seen in about 50 years of politics as usual. Neoliberal ideas no longer animate either side of the aisle quite like they did anywhere from 26 to just 10 years ago.

There are some MAP scenes that from what little I can gather on them appear more advanced, mainly the German MAP scene. The Dutch would count too here if the Dutch forums hadnt folded from what I can tell.

tbqh I would not be surprised if the US was embracing MAP rights in a big way in the future while Europe actually lags or becomes more anti. I'm not a fortune teller but right now I look at Europe and much of them are stuck somewhere between 2015-2022 and those are the people that aren't actually just stuck in the 90s/00s. its actually somewhat jarring to see but perhaps thats also reason for hope as America might be further along whatever history has planned for us and in that way we could be closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.

I've been saying for a while that America is likely the place where a militant MAP movement will likely have to coalesce. It is the "belly of the beast" to use Guevara's turn of phrase. The upside of that is that action here, even if it doesn't free MAPs, could lead to a lessening of anti-MAP prejudice everywhere if successful but we'll see! Would be quite an irony if the US embraces MAPs when the rest of the world is no longer culturally enthralled but retains Anglo-American anti-MAP prejudices.

As for your example about the hive, the thing is that nature doesn't dictate what humans must do.

'm trying my best to resist it and find alternatives, but on some level the vision of the delusional 'abundance' movement comforts me.

I could write a lot critiquing this movement but it does touch on how much high housing costs are just driving so much misery right now. Unfortunately, they don't even rise to the level of 19th century liberals like Mill, Ricardo, Henry George etc. who thought land should be owned by the state or taxed significantly in a way that did away with the "free lunch" of landlords and other real estate speculators.

You could read Engels on the housing question on this but, ultimately, to me, I'm not trying to sell people on Marxism per se (though I do think its part of a well-rounded political education many MAPs lack) as much as I'm trying to point to the inadequacies of liberalism and the liberal establishment. And there remains the people in this movement who do believe that the first can incorporate MAPs and the second is able and willing to make reform. How will this be done without pressuring them? And how will critiquing them at the fundamental level be make or break in that? I almost feel sometimes like there's a subconscious reaction people here have, almost as if liberals read my posts criticizing liberals then they wont do the reforms that people here hope they will do (spoiler: they have no plan to do that, the opposite, actually). If Liberalism can include MAPs then let the liberal establishment prove it and if it can't then we do have to, like it or not, get with movements that want to see it disappear from the stage of history.

Its theoretically possible that liberalism could integrate the MAP cause without it being sundered totally to assimilationism. I told a friend that if this happens this will be the last bourgeois revolution in the sense that I can't see the sphere of bourgeois democracy being expanded any further. But, I don't expect the system to make those changes to accomodate us, especially without real pressure, and I don't think capitalism has enough time left to manifest a society with full MAP rights but we'll certainly see! I do see the system getting desperate and on some level necessity could be a major factor, as there's been a push for child labor in many red states and even some blue ones (since they are often red on the state/local level).

Thanks for taking the time to read and consider what I have to say with an open mind I'm not the type to carp overly much on this but I do often feel people in this scene misunderstand what I have to say.

I'll say that I do think that MAPs need a common ideology and a program/set of principles but the point of my posts is not really to make people believe what I believe per se. That's nice but my hope and belief is that even if I'm wrong it will help push needed conversations forward because this is a pretty new movement that's still getting its footing and in many ways its been a little too stagnant for too long.