MAP Forum

Pro-Reform is a framework which argues that cautious legal reforms are needed to offer greater rights and protections to MAPs and Youth. The framework is endorsed by Brian Ribbon as an individual, and the opinions expressed here are not necessarily agreed upon by all members of Mu.

https://www.map-union.org/blog/perspect ... philosophy

BLueRibbon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 9:43 am Pro-Reform is a framework which argues that cautious legal reforms are needed to offer greater rights and protections to MAPs and Youth. The framework is endorsed by Brian Ribbon as an individual, and the opinions expressed here are not necessarily agreed upon by all members of Mu.

https://www.map-union.org/blog/perspect ... philosophy

In the above link, you invite comments here.

On the topic of AMSC, in addition to referring out to the Bruce Rind's papers and the statistics therein, I suggest it would strengthen reform proposals to touch upon the human dynamics of adult/minor interaction. If one is to argue the case for, it would be useful to be able to debate and discuss this key dimension. My apologies if this topic has been covered elsewhere on Mu.

Strato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:31 am

BLueRibbon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 9:43 am Pro-Reform is a framework which argues that cautious legal reforms are needed to offer greater rights and protections to MAPs and Youth. The framework is endorsed by Brian Ribbon as an individual, and the opinions expressed here are not necessarily agreed upon by all members of Mu.

https://www.map-union.org/blog/perspect ... philosophy

In the above link, you invite comments here.

On the topic of AMSC, in addition to referring out to the Bruce Rind's papers and the statistics therein, I suggest it would strengthen reform proposals to touch upon the human dynamics of adult/minor interaction. If one is to argue the case for, it would be useful to be able to debate and discuss this key dimension. My apologies if this topic has been covered elsewhere on Mu.

What aspects of adult/minor interaction do you think should be discussed?

BLueRibbon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 3:06 pm

Strato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:31 am

BLueRibbon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 9:43 am Pro-Reform is a framework which argues that cautious legal reforms are needed to offer greater rights and protections to MAPs and Youth. The framework is endorsed by Brian Ribbon as an individual, and the opinions expressed here are not necessarily agreed upon by all members of Mu.

https://www.map-union.org/blog/perspect ... philosophy

In the above link, you invite comments here.

On the topic of AMSC, in addition to referring out to the Bruce Rind's papers and the statistics therein, I suggest it would strengthen reform proposals to touch upon the human dynamics of adult/minor interaction. If one is to argue the case for, it would be useful to be able to debate and discuss this key dimension. My apologies if this topic has been covered elsewhere on Mu.

What aspects of adult/minor interaction do you think should be discussed?

My thought was to create a set of questions and answers (Q and A) relating to the topic of Adult/Minor Sexual Contact. The questions are those one perennially hears within public discourse. The answers comprise robust responses to such questions.

The scope of AMSC Q and A could usefully cover: sexual relationships, societal ownership of the child, power and consent. A set of appropriate Q and A should clarify the Union’s terms of reference and help underpin future activism, for example, assisting Mu members who decide to engage in public debate.

Strato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:09 pm
My thought was to create a set of questions and answers (Q and A) relating to the topic of Adult/Minor Sexual Contact. The questions are those one perennially hears within public discourse. The answers comprise robust responses to such questions.

The scope of AMSC Q and A could usefully cover: sexual relationships, societal ownership of the child, power and consent. A set of appropriate Q and A should clarify the Union’s terms of reference and help underpin future activism, for example, assisting Mu members who decide to engage in public debate.

This is difficult because Mu itself does not take a pro-c position. We hope to represent the interests and opinions of all MAPs, including those that believe that AMSC should remain illegal.

What you are suggesting already exists as part of Yesmap (Newgon)'s Debate Guide https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Debate_Guide . It is backed up by a lot of research. Although some anti-c people see the Yesmap research as tilted towards a pro-c stance, the level of research into MAP history and social attitudes in the past cannot be denied. It'd be futile to try and reduplicate that on Mu.

We're definitely willing to put forward controversial stances on an individual level- such as Brian's pro-reform stance, but as an organization we want to focus on articles that are more contact neutral so we don't isolate any members of our community. It is the main issue that causes conflict between MAPs, after all (though we do encourage healthy debate and discussion).

Fragment wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 8:57 am

Strato wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:09 pm
My thought was to create a set of questions and answers (Q and A) relating to the topic of Adult/Minor Sexual Contact. The questions are those one perennially hears within public discourse. The answers comprise robust responses to such questions.

The scope of AMSC Q and A could usefully cover: sexual relationships, societal ownership of the child, power and consent. A set of appropriate Q and A should clarify the Union’s terms of reference and help underpin future activism, for example, assisting Mu members who decide to engage in public debate.

This is difficult because Mu itself does not take a pro-c position. We hope to represent the interests and opinions of all MAPs, including those that believe that AMSC should remain illegal.

What you are suggesting already exists as part of Yesmap (Newgon)'s Debate Guide https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Debate_Guide . It is backed up by a lot of research. Although some anti-c people see the Yesmap research as tilted towards a pro-c stance, the level of research into MAP history and social attitudes in the past cannot be denied. It'd be futile to try and reduplicate that on Mu.

We're definitely willing to put forward controversial stances on an individual level- such as Brian's pro-reform stance, but as an organization we want to focus on articles that are more contact neutral so we don't isolate any members of our community. It is the main issue that causes conflict between MAPs, after all (though we do encourage healthy debate and discussion).

Thank you for your detailed response. Forgive me, as a newbie I likely missed the point that in taking a neutral stance between two opposing positions, Mu was running the risk of failing to achieve its aims, or at least of diluting its effectiveness.

My intention was not to wallow in ideology, but to verbalise what happens in real world relationships between minors and adults. Surely a community aim should be to dismantle destructive discriminatory dominant narratives that for decades have plagued minors and adults alike.

I will certainly take a look at the link you provide. Many years ago, I contributed to Newgon, so maybe that is a more appropriate resource for me.

Strato wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 11:37 pm Thank you for your detailed response. Forgive me, as a newbie I likely missed the point that in taking a neutral stance between two opposing positions, Mu was running the risk of failing to achieve its aims, or at least of diluting its effectiveness.

My intention was not to wallow in ideology, but to verbalise what happens in real world relationships between minors and adults. Surely a community aim should be to dismantle destructive discriminatory dominant narratives that for decades have plagued minors and adults alike.

I will certainly take a look at the link you provide. Many years ago, I contributed to Newgon, so maybe that is a more appropriate resource for me.

We definitely intend to break down some of the myths regarding maps and AMSC. In particularly we think that most MAPs should agree that non-forced contact should not be put into the same category as forced contact. Just like recent research treats "MAPs" differently to "sex offenders", we believe that research needs to analyse the outcomes of forced and non-forced contact separately. Research does exist, of course, but it's still sparse.

But there are members of our community that believe minors can't consent (even Brian's pro-reform proposal assumes that under 12s are less capable of consent). There are also members of our community that believe it is harmful for minors to engage sexually with adults. We don't want to ignore those opinions. But you're right that we shouldn't ignore the facts, either.

Pharmakon on BoyChat did a great analysis of one of the more recent studies here:
https://www.boychat.org/messages/1630450.htm

I must admit it be good to see some research, as long as it good research. As someone that has had to analysis research, it is important to ensure that the study examines the actual issues. Also I presume there needs to be protection for you guys, plus maybe smaller sample sizes but defa quality approach. Large quantative studies tend to muddy the waters plus i think can be subjective.
In relation to subject at hand. It is hard as governments set ages of consent on a very generalised basis, or they seem too. Plus countries that had lower ages of consent seem to have been bullied into increasing these, especially from the larger western countries. From what I have read anyway. Do you know if any these countries that changed age of consent based it on research?? As I not looked into that.
In regard to consent you could do what I call 'side ways research' sorry just me weird phases. So say, to start out, instead of going straight for the jugular, you complete or comission a study that related to say age of consent but aim it at a different subject. One that you would clean 'some' information and might actually get some more non maps like me thinking. Taking the heat out of the research, then build on that.
So as an example, instead of a study into ages of consent, do one say on ' the useage of instragram by under 13s' As you maybe aware you meant to be 13 to go on instragram but with a parent controlled account under 13s downwards have accounts. From what I have seen these types of accounts have under 13s showing their dance pics, model pics etc. You could factor in 'child consent' into a study like that. Just a thought anyway.

As far as I'm aware countries raising their age of consent do it based on public/ international pressure or due to some edge case scandal.

Last year Japan raised its age of consent. One of the reasons was that a father was found innocent of raping his daughter while she was a teenager on the basis that "there was no evidence that she couldn't resist", which was the previous standard for rape in Japan. Although he was found innocent, this decision was overruled on appeal. In other words, the previously law was sufficient. Yet due to the lower court's decision a bunch of university girls went about collecting signatures to change the law. The definition of rape was changed so the victim isn't required to resist and at the same time the age of consent was raised from 13 to 16. From what I've read the decision for the change in age was based on "evidence of maturity of younger people". Yet I'm not sure what evidence they're referring to. It seems more that they were appealing to authority and consensus but not actually proving what they claimed to prove.

There was one politician who complained about the legal change. He was forced to resign for even suggesting that a 13 or 14 year old girl might be able to make their own sexual decisions.

But such is the way with the legislature. Governments don't actually have to prove that any policy they hope to implement will actually work. They just need to convince they public that they think it will work. Especially in a one party state like Japan.

That just ridiculous then. Especially as the guy was innocent. Surely thought be based on proper research. Do agree with you about pressure but read about how all EU hoping to push up Germany's age of consent. Just seems strange. Maybe politicians need to commission and read research. Surely that would be important.