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Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:49 pm
by PorcelainLark
A topic that came up in the FAQ thread was disputing the claim about those viewing CSAM/PIM are contributing to a multibillion dollar industry.
BLueRibbon wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 3:41 pm
WandersGlade wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:37 pm What do you think of it?
Overall, good. I have a few nitpicks though.
Many members of the public think that banning possession is necessary because of "market demand" principles that apply to financial transactions, but most MAPs who use PIM download leaked images and videos for free, kind of like how people download regular movies from torrent sites. Saying that this encourages a market for PIM just doesn't make sense.
A citation or citations for this would be useful, since it's such a common talking point.
Unfortunately, this is simply 'community knowledge', and I'm not aware of anything we can cite.
As far as I'm aware there isn't a source yet to refer back to when this is brought up. I was thinking we could work together as community on a document that refutes this. So here are a few of my ideas about how to approach this:
1. Gathering the testimonies of people who have been charged with making use of CP, that they never purchased it.
2. If collecting and purchasing CP are charged differently, showing what percentage do purchase CP.
3. Collecting statements of how much money is spent by the people charged with purchasing CP.
What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:14 am
by Fragment
This could be something to try to collaborate on with NARSOL.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm
by BLueRibbon
The major challenge is that we can't legally go to those sites to do research.

Nonetheless, I'm willing to admit that I've talked with people who do go to them.

The upcoming Huw Edwards ROUGH draft states:
In 1988, when the _possession_ of indecent images of children was criminalized, the world was a very different place. Back then, finding PIM would require fairly close contact with a producer, and perhaps a financial transaction or trade. It is easy to understand how, based on this, the idea of a consumer 'creating demand' might have come about. In 2024, Mu understands that PIM are now traded on forums where people re-post images and videos that have been in circulation for years. They are pirated repeatedly, with no benefit to the original creator. There is no fueling the market here; people downloading these images are not culpable in the acts that took place ten, twenty, thirty, or forty years ago. A law against purchasing new material would be sufficient to suppress any market for new material, especially if the possession and downloading of older material were decriminalized and therefore a safe alternative.

There remains a concern - a potential weak point in our argument - that needs to be addressed. It is reported by the media that a very small number of people encourage minors to perform sexually in front of a camera by pretending to be another young person. It is also reported that an even smaller number of people record and share these videos. Unfortunately, MAP contacts familiar with PIM websites have confirmed this to be true. Mu agrees that this deception, and especially the sharing of such videos, is wholly unacceptable. We are very much opposed to it. We also accept the argument that, in this case, adoration from others may encourage the sharing of such videos, absent of any financial motivation. However, criminalizing the download and possession of such material is still not the solution.

First of all, the number of people commenting and thanking the producers is extremely small in comparison with those downloading copies. It would make sense to take some action against this in order to prevent the sharing of such material. Admittedly, enforcement would be very difficult, as these comments generally appear on darknet boards where users are very hard to track down, but this still doesn't place any moral culpability on those who simple download copies, nor does prosecuting random downloaders have any impact on the decision of the producer to share their videos. Furthermore, it's likely that people producing videos of that nature would do so for their own interest, even if they didn't go on to share them. Mu understands that the platforms on which such videos are recorded are extremely insecure, and believes it would be better to invest police resources on tracking the producers, instead of wasting time on people who simply have copies of such videos on their device. Taking the lazy approach, by pretending that the prosecution of those in possession of the material will somehow stop production, may be easier for authorities but is nothing but an excuse for the unwillingness of police to make the effort to find producers.

A look at the laws against AI PM give lie to the claims that anyone really believes a market is being 'fueled' by those who download PIM. The matter is clearly not one of protecting children, but of moral outrage. More than fifteen years ago, on a now defunct predecessor to Mu, activists collected published responses to the Scottish “consultation on the possession of non-photographic visual depictions of child sex abuse”, which were eventually criminalized in the Coroners and Justice Act (2009). The response to the consultation reveals the reality behind the motivation for such laws:

[...]

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 3:36 pm
by PorcelainLark
Fragment wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:14 am This could be something to try to collaborate on with NARSOL.
Is this the kind of thing that's within their wheelhouse?
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm The major challenge is that we can't legally go to those sites to do research.
That why I was thinking you could gather evidence from people already charged with crimes.
Nonetheless, I'm willing to admit that I've talked with people who do go to them.
That's kind of the issue I want to get around. If we can point to public records, it comes across as more impartial. Plus, no one is put under public pressure to "name names".

Regarding the Edwards essay: I still think there are problems, due to analogies to revenge porn. We can say we disagree with the modern consensus on the ethics of distributing and making use of revenge porn, but then it makes it even harder to persuade people. I think maybe an a fortiori argument could be based on the sexual self-expression of minors, that is PIM is ethically acceptable when it is distributed in agreement with the will of the minor. However this begs the question that children can consent, so I wonder if you can really persuade people without proving that first.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:01 pm
by Fragment
PorcelainLark wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 3:36 pm
Fragment wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:14 am This could be something to try to collaborate on with NARSOL.
Is this the kind of thing that's within their wheelhouse?
I'm not sure, but they are one of the organizations that'd be closest in touch with a large number of offenders, which is what you'd need to really establish credibility.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:36 pm
by argosy
Carl Bialik is no longer at the Wall Street Journal -- for decades, he wrote a column as the WSJ's "numbers guy". Here he tries to get to the bottom of the $20 billion dollar figure often-quoted as a child porn market size.

Measuring the Child-Porn Trade
By Carl Bialik
The Wall Street Journal Online

April 18, 2006 12:01 am ET

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000

Unlike, say, the soft-drink or airline industries, the child-pornography industry doesn't report its annual sales to the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Yet in a press release ahead of a recent House of Representatives hearing aimed at curbing the industry, Texas Republican Joe Barton said, "Child pornography is apparently a multibillion ... my staff analysis says $20 billion-a-year business. Twenty billion dollars." Some press reports said the figure applied only to the industry's online segment. The New York Times reported, "the sexual exploitation of children on the Internet is a $20 billion industry that continues to expand in the United States and abroad," citing witnesses at the hearing. (The Online Journal's Real Time column also quoted the estimate from the hearing.)

My efforts this week to track down the number's source -- and free-lance journalist Daniel Radosh's similar quest on his blog -- yielded lots of dead ends. It turns out it can be easier to enter a big number into the Congressional record, and national press coverage, than to locate its origin. (Numbers Guy reader Brian Flanagan suggested I look into the estimate.)

What was Rep. Barton's staff analysis? A spokesman for the House Energy and Commerce Committee told me the source of the number was the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, a group that advocates for the protection of children. When I first talked with that group's president, Ernie Allen, he told me that Standard Chartered bank, which has worked with the NCMEC to cut off funding to child-porn traffickers, wanted a quantitative analysis of the problem, so it asked for a measurement from consulting firm McKinsey & Co.

Mr. Allen faxed me an NCMEC paper that cites the McKinsey study in placing the child-porn industry at $6 billion in 1999, and $20 billion in 2004.

But a McKinsey spokesman painted a different picture for me: "The number was not calculated or generated by McKinsey," he wrote in an email. Instead, for a pro bono analysis for Standard Chartered, he said, McKinsey used a number that appeared in a report last year by End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes, an international advocacy group.

But the trail didn't end there: That report, in turn, attributed the number to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as did a report last year from the Council of Europe, a Strasbourg, France-based human-rights watchdog. Both of those reports noted that estimates range widely, from $3 billion to $20 billion.

FBI spokesman Paul Bresson told me in an email, "The FBI has not stated the $20 billion figure... . I have asked many people who would know for sure if we have attached the $20 billion number to this problem. I have scoured our Web site, too. Nothing!"

I went back to the NCMEC Monday and shared what I found. In an email response, spokeswoman Joann Donnellan said, "If it is determined that this ends up not being a reliable statistic, NCMEC will stop citing McKinsey as the source and will also stop citing a specific number. Rather, NCMEC will revert to what it has said previously ... that commercial child pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry."

This isn't the first number from the NCMEC that struck me as questionable. The group provided the estimate that one in five children is sexually solicited online, which appeared in public-service ads distributed by the Ad Council. The stat has received a fresh round of publicity thanks to donated air time from MySpace, a site popular with teens. As I wrote last year, the "one in five" estimate was based on research that was five years old which only covered children who spent time online. The survey also used a broad definition of sexual solicitation. Yet the stat persists. The NCMEC told me last July it hoped to have new research by the end of last year. Now, spokeswoman Tina Schwartz says the group expects new research to be released in the next couple of months.

* * *

As Congress debates whether to pass new laws specifically outlawing online gambling, a recent poll appears to show that the public is strongly against the legislative effort: Almost 80% of Americans oppose a ban, according to the survey.

The poll was conducted by well-known polling firm Zogby International on behalf of an online gambling trade group. As I've written in the past, such sponsored research warrants extra scrutiny from readers, though the fact that the poll was commissioned by a special-interest group isn't by itself a reason to dismiss it.

Still, in this case, it appears that the sponsor of the poll influenced the way it was conducted, particularly in the way the questions were phrased. Here's one question: "Many gambling experts believe that Internet gambling will continue no matter what the government does to try to stop it. Do you agree or disagree that the federal government should allocate government resources and spend taxpayer money trying to stop adult Americans from gambling online?" Some 77% of respondents disagreed.

Here's another question: "More than 80% of Americans believe that gambling is a question of personal choice that should not be interfered with by the government. Do you agree or disagree that the federal government should stop adult Americans from gambling with licensed and regulated online sports books and casinos based in other countries?" You probably won't be surprised to learn that after being told that most Americans don't want the government to interfere, some 71% of the respondents to this question signaled they, too, were against a government ban.

The results of the poll were posted on the gambling trade group's Web site and emailed to journalists.

The gambling questions "were fair and balanced, and gave the respondent appropriate choices," Fritz Wenzel, spokesman for Zogby International, told me in an email. (Zogby does many political polls separate from interest-group-backed research, including polling on the 2004 presidential race and 2006 gubernatorial and Senate races for the Online Journal.)

Polling experts disagreed when I showed them the poll. Cliff Zukin, president of the American Association for Public Opinion Research, a professional association of pollsters, told me the questions are "loaded and biased." Prof. Zukin added that if any of his students at Rutgers University wrote such questions, "I would fail them."

Robert Blumenfeld, an El Paso, Texas-based attorney for the Antiguan Offshore Gaming Association, told me the trade group paid "less than $10,000" for the poll. The Antiguan group, which represents more than a dozen online casinos, drafted the questions with guidance from Zogby, Mr. Blumenfeld said. He disagreed with the suggestion that the phrasing of the questions might have influenced the results, but said the group would conduct further polling. "We're willing to put the question in a way that can't be subject to any kind of criticism," Mr. Blumenfeld said.

Mr. Blumenfeld said the group is using the results of the poll in its lobbying efforts to fight an online gambling ban.

It's not unusual for pollsters to conduct polls for hire. Many pollsters make their reputations with political polling, and make their money with sponsored polling. Still, Zogby's poll didn't meet certain standards set by the polling professional association headed by Prof. Zukin, which say, among other things, that pollsters should ask unbiased questions.

Zogby International and its chief executive, John Zogby, are well known in the polling world. Yet Mr. Zogby has at times lent his firm's credibility to polls conducted for sponsors and filled with leading questions, as a New Yorker profile in 2004 noted. One poll funded by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals asked respondents if they would stop eating meat or dairy products "if you knew that within days of birth, chickens have their beaks seared off with a hot blade to keep them from pecking each other in their overly crowded cages?"

Other Zogby polls addressing gambling have had conflicting results. A poll conducted by Zogby on behalf of the New York Council on Problem Gambling, in 2004, found that 67% of respondents said that expanding gambling by the State of New York will definitely or probably increase the number of people with gambling problems.

The Zogby poll wasn't the only recent survey on online gambling to include what I'd consider leading questions. A Harris Interactive online poll, conducted in February and mentioned in several news outlets (including the Online Journal) found -- among other things -- that 27% of respondents strongly agreed with the statement "since there is no effective way to regulate or control Internet gambling, it should remain illegal," and 27% of respondents somewhat agreed.

The phrasing of that question seems to make an assumption (the impossibility of regulation) that could have influenced responses. Humphrey Taylor, chairman of the Harris Poll, told me that the question was deliberately designed to "see how different arguments played." He said he wouldn't use the response to that particular question, which he called "projective," to determine whether people support legalizing online gambling. "In any release we do, we are fair and balanced, but any single projective question may not be," Mr. Taylor said, adding that the poll wasn't sponsored.

* * *

Several readers wrote in about my column last week on the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. Here's an excerpt from one letter:

As a result of my own experience attempting to estimate the number of workers employed in California seasonal agricultural work during my Ph.D. research, I feel qualified to doubt the validity of any estimation method based on the U.S. census of population. While attempting to use census data from rural California counties to estimate the accuracy of two different state employment service reports on agricultural employment, I encountered discrepancies among the three sources of as much as 300%, with the census data always being the lowest. Conversations with friends in the urban Chicano community confirmed my suspicion that illegal residents were effectively avoiding enumeration. Perhaps the data collection has improved, but it's doubtful that people who want to avoid government scrutiny will make themselves available.

Sue Hayes, professor of economics, Sonoma State University

Several readers also wrote in about my comment that scientific notation is likely to be adopted soon after the U.S. adopts the metric system:

We've lost enough dollars and lives because of continuing confusion between our systems of inches vs. millimeters and pints vs. liters, but the idea of mass re-education of the entire American public and mass retooling of manufacturing is frightening.

Pearl Ladenheim

I would like to suggest a column on the status of metric conversion in the U.S. Is there hope or are we going to continue to bury our heads in 10 tons of sand (which is 20,000 pounds or 10,000 kilograms which, in turn, is 22,000 lbs)?

Richard J. Behling

And finally, I got this letter about an Associated Press article on a Malaysian man who received a $218 trillion phone bill.

Of course it's amusing that the man received an absurdly high phone bill. But the really funny part, in my opinion, is the AP journalist's analysis: "It wasn't clear whether the bill was a mistake, or if [the] phone line was used illegally." $218 trillion?!? Hmm... I think it's pretty clear.

Ray Weaver

Write to Carl Bialik at numbersguy@wsj.com

Corrections & Amplifications:

A letter in an earlier version of this column incorrectly stated the number of pounds, or kilograms, in a ton.

Copyright ©2024 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:53 am
by PorcelainLark
Fragment wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:01 pm I'm not sure, but they are one of the organizations that'd be closest in touch with a large number of offenders, which is what you'd need to really establish credibility.
Looks like the right group to ask. I expect I'll have to wait quite a while (maybe even a year), if I took that project on, because soon I'm going to start being quite busy for the foreseeable future.
argosy wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:36 pm Carl Bialik is no longer at the Wall Street Journal -- for decades, he wrote a column as the WSJ's "numbers guy". Here he tries to get to the bottom of the $20 billion dollar figure often-quoted as a child porn market size.

Measuring the Child-Porn Trade
By Carl Bialik
The Wall Street Journal Online

April 18, 2006 12:01 am ET

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114485422875624000

Unlike, say, the soft-drink or airline industries, the child-pornography industry doesn't report its annual sales to the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Yet in a press release ahead of a recent House of Representatives hearing aimed at curbing the industry, Texas Republican Joe Barton said, "Child pornography is apparently a multibillion ... my staff analysis says $20 billion-a-year business. Twenty billion dollars." Some press reports said the figure applied only to the industry's online segment. The New York Times reported, "the sexual exploitation of children on the Internet is a $20 billion industry that continues to expand in the United States and abroad," citing witnesses at the hearing. (The Online Journal's Real Time column also quoted the estimate from the hearing.)

My efforts this week to track down the number's source -- and free-lance journalist Daniel Radosh's similar quest on his blog -- yielded lots of dead ends. It turns out it can be easier to enter a big number into the Congressional record, and national press coverage, than to locate its origin. (Numbers Guy reader Brian Flanagan suggested I look into the estimate.)

What was Rep. Barton's staff analysis? A spokesman for the House Energy and Commerce Committee told me the source of the number was the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, a group that advocates for the protection of children. When I first talked with that group's president, Ernie Allen, he told me that Standard Chartered bank, which has worked with the NCMEC to cut off funding to child-porn traffickers, wanted a quantitative analysis of the problem, so it asked for a measurement from consulting firm McKinsey & Co.

Mr. Allen faxed me an NCMEC paper that cites the McKinsey study in placing the child-porn industry at $6 billion in 1999, and $20 billion in 2004.

But a McKinsey spokesman painted a different picture for me: "The number was not calculated or generated by McKinsey," he wrote in an email. Instead, for a pro bono analysis for Standard Chartered, he said, McKinsey used a number that appeared in a report last year by End Child Prostitution, Child Pornography and Trafficking of Children for Sexual Purposes, an international advocacy group.

But the trail didn't end there: That report, in turn, attributed the number to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as did a report last year from the Council of Europe, a Strasbourg, France-based human-rights watchdog. Both of those reports noted that estimates range widely, from $3 billion to $20 billion.

FBI spokesman Paul Bresson told me in an email, "The FBI has not stated the $20 billion figure... . I have asked many people who would know for sure if we have attached the $20 billion number to this problem. I have scoured our Web site, too. Nothing!"

I went back to the NCMEC Monday and shared what I found. In an email response, spokeswoman Joann Donnellan said, "If it is determined that this ends up not being a reliable statistic, NCMEC will stop citing McKinsey as the source and will also stop citing a specific number. Rather, NCMEC will revert to what it has said previously ... that commercial child pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry."

This isn't the first number from the NCMEC that struck me as questionable. The group provided the estimate that one in five children is sexually solicited online, which appeared in public-service ads distributed by the Ad Council. The stat has received a fresh round of publicity thanks to donated air time from MySpace, a site popular with teens. As I wrote last year, the "one in five" estimate was based on research that was five years old which only covered children who spent time online. The survey also used a broad definition of sexual solicitation. Yet the stat persists. The NCMEC told me last July it hoped to have new research by the end of last year. Now, spokeswoman Tina Schwartz says the group expects new research to be released in the next couple of months.
Great article! Our friends at ECPAT and NCMEC cropping up again, I notice.
If there's no source, could we get one of those fact-check pop ups under Youtube videos or Twitter posts? Or maybe, get NCMEC labelled as an organization that spreads misinformation?
My efforts this week to track down the number's source -- and free-lance journalist Daniel Radosh's similar quest on his blog -- yielded lots of dead ends
Wish I could find this by the way.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:39 pm
by fortuna
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm The major challenge is that we can't legally go to those sites to do research.
Yes and no. It is possible to use an amnesic OS e.g. Tails, and also to turn off images in one's browser, so that one doesn't inadvertently view or download contraband images.

That said, the people populating these places tend to be suspicious with good reason. You would have to rely on any respondents cooperating and furthermore being forthcoming, and telling the truth, when there is little to no incentive for them do do so. I would argue that the meagre rewards of such research are simply not worth the risks taken to obtain this information.
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm Nonetheless, I'm willing to admit that I've talked with people who do go to them.
As have I.
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm The upcoming Huw Edwards ROUGH draft states:
In 1988, when the _possession_ of indecent images of children was criminalized, the world was a very different place. Back then, finding PIM would require fairly close contact with a producer, and perhaps a financial transaction or trade. It is easy to understand how, based on this, the idea of a consumer 'creating demand' might have come about.
I disagree. Whether one wishes to believe it or not, there actually was a (semi) legal child pornography industry in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. In fact, I remember having newsgroup discussions with someone who purported to have been a part of such an industry at that time. In the mid-to-late 1970s, I can remember seeing such magazines displayed on a local newsstand. Most of the magazines, if memory serves, were said to have come from Denmark, where a loophole in the law rendered them legal. There were also several U.S. produced magazines -- there was a 1985 Los Angeles Times article which discussed this:
Child Smut Business Going Underground: Grows Uglier as Customers Trade Children, Not Just Pictures, Police Say
By CAROL McGRAW
Sept. 16, 1985 12 AM PT

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-09-16-mn-22002-story.html

Child pornography, which has plagued most societies, only became big business in this country in the early 1970s, when community restrictions began easing. It was a featured item for obscenity dealers, grossing as much as $1 billion a year, according to police.

In response to the flood of explicit material, a 1977 federal law made it illegal to commercially disseminate child pornography.

But the pornographer and his product only changed. The problem did not go away.

Magazines Are Gone

As law enforcement efforts intensified, commercially produced magazines such as Lollitots, Baby Love and Nudist Moppets--in which children as young as 3 years old were shown performing sex acts with adults--have virtually vanished from adult bookstore shelves. Movies in which toddlers are the stars are rarely shown openly in X-rated theaters. Organized crime, for the most part, turned its attention to the adult pornography trade, where the profits are bigger and the risks smaller.
Naturally, I consider that LA Times headline as hyperbole.
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm In 2024, Mu understands that PIM are now traded on forums where people re-post images and videos that have been in circulation for years. They are pirated repeatedly, with no benefit to the original creator. There is no fueling the market here; people downloading these images are not culpable in the acts that took place ten, twenty, thirty, or forty years ago.
Agreed.
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm A law against purchasing new material would be sufficient to suppress any market for new material, especially if the possession and downloading of older material were decriminalized and therefore a safe alternative.
The authorities typically argue that in order to catch the producers, they have to be able to catch the downloaders -- this may (or may not) be true.

The last case that I can recall, where 'purchase' of child pornography was alleged (that was not a sting attempt orchestrated by the authorities) was about 15 years ago. The suspect allegedly involved was Pascal Taveirne; you can read more about some of his alleged activities at the following link:

https://www.sott.net/article/242932-Global-trail-of-child-abuse-led-to-arrest-of-five-suspects-in-Ireland
BLueRibbon wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:34 pm There remains a concern - a potential weak point in our argument - that needs to be addressed. It is reported by the media that a very small number of people encourage minors to perform sexually in front of a camera by pretending to be another young person. It is also reported that an even smaller number of people record and share these videos. Unfortunately, MAP contacts familiar with PIM websites have confirmed this to be true. Mu agrees that this deception, and especially the sharing of such videos, is wholly unacceptable. We are very much opposed to it. We also accept the argument that, in this case, adoration from others may encourage the sharing of such videos, absent of any financial motivation. However, criminalizing the download and possession of such material is still not the solution.
Peer-adoration is a real thing -- how many times have we seen, for example, people taking selfies in dangerous situations -- all in the search for likes or clicks.

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2024 3:25 am
by OnionPetal
Those who make the claim should have the burden of proving that claim. That such widely disparate numbers are tossed about without substantiation -- as evidenced by the article referenced by argosy -- should be enough to cast strong scepticism on those figures.

PorcelainLark wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:49 pm [...] If collecting and purchasing CP are charged differently, showing what percentage do purchase CP. [...]
@PorcelainLark, re: conducting or commissioning a study. What you describe here looks like a quantitative methods study, requiring a very large number of participants/data (≈100+) in order for the analysis to be 'statistically significant' (odds against random chance). The higher the sample size, the higher the statistical significance, and the more credible the study. It takes a lot of work, special skills, and time to pull off a study that is free from major methodological flaws. And in the end, at best, we are demonstrating a 'correlation,' not 'causation.' And then, if we conducted our own study... would it be seen as credible? Maybe it would be best to team up with an organization known for publishing this sort of research. It's a good idea to think about getting more hands-on involved with research, but it's certainly tough trying to do that kind of research ourselves.

Another research approach might be a "content analysis." This doesn't require any interviews, and can be done relying on news databases, for instance. I assume that whenever someone is busted for 'producing PIM,' there is a news article detailing the arrest, and often very detailed specifics related to the charge (sometimes down to the number of images). If a researcher were to filter news articles by date, looking only at cases involving production of CIM among a few sample years, that could provide insights as to whether the trend in production is increasing or decreasing. It's a lot of work, and a lot of analysis, because it would involve, for instance, counting all instances of CIM production documented in a certain year (perhaps limited to a certain country). But that's still simpler than tracking down people to interview.

But for now, I'd say the burden of proof on the "billions" claim, falls on those organizations making the claims. What methods did they use to arrive at those figures, and are there any obvious flaws in their methods?

The market worth of Paramount Global currently sits around 7.87 Billion USD. Has any child p*** company ever been proven of earning that kind of revenue?? Not a chance. I find it highly unlikely that the child p*** 'industry' as a whole -- an 'industry' which primarily involves unpaid pirated trading -- would be worth anywhere near one of the biggest mass media companies in the world. Where are the child p*** producer millionaires, even? How many does the FBI catch per year? And what are their annual salaries from produced PIM sales? If this data is not available, or if it doesn't add up to "billions of dollars," then the best anyone is doing is "guessing."

Re: Disputing the claim that "child pornography" is a multibillion dollar industry

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2024 7:51 am
by PorcelainLark
OnionPetal wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 3:25 am Those who make the claim should have the burden of proving that claim. That such widely disparate numbers are tossed about without substantiation -- as evidenced by the article referenced by argosy -- should be enough to cast strong scepticism on those figures.

...

But for now, I'd say the burden of proof on the "billions" claim, falls on those organizations making the claims. What methods did they use to arrive at those figures, and are there any obvious flaws in their methods?
That approach would be fine if their views weren't already widely held. However it isn't just a debate, it's also about PR. If you want to challenge a popular myth, you have to do more than just say "these claims are unsubstantiated". Passivity isn't going to change people's minds.
The underlying aim is to combat the claim that people who view child pornography are incentivizing child abuse because of purchasing it, so that people who view child pornography are complicit in child abuse. It would be useful to have a source that smacks down that argument, whenever it gets brought up. It's more about using objective evidence to cut off a way that people grandstand about MAPs, than a scientific question by itself.

Honestly, it probably is beyond me to do the research, though, so I might let go of the idea.

However if we could get those figures labelled as misinformation for being unsubstantiated, that would still be a massive step forward.