MAP Forum

Most MAPs don't get involved with the MAP scene because they want to overthrow the world but rather because want to have a minor partner or remember the pain of being a minor themselves and having a forbidden relationship with an adult or the haunting pain and shame of realizing their attraction to dangerously young people as minors themselves but the contradiction arises that to have the private pleasure of a relationship with a yf the world must be overthrown. In the big 25, we have NOMAP card-carrying VIRPED members drawing guns on themselves at wikipedia conferences. These believers in a ego-dystonic ideology ask for little more than to have their identity validated and their voice heard, to have their own spaces, to have therapeutic services available that they can use to "fix" themselves. And even this is not allowed. There arises another contradiction. That anti-C MAPs had to move to spaces to niche censorship proof online spaces, just as much as pro-Cs, proves a long standing point of mine that there's little use in trying to appeal to the establishment at present. Even wanting to have sex with a child or to look at cp is just about as much of a crime to the average normgroid as doing it, and they typically oppose the anti-C movement just as strenuously as pro-C because they reason with probably some justice it will lead to the normalization of pedophilia.

Pedophilia is held up and remains the one true unspeakable and untouchable horror in the mind of Westerners, the one moral absolute left in a society that has seen a numer of time-honored and venerable prejudices be struck down the wayside, or watered down by moral relativism to the point that there seems little point it getting heated about. In 2025, it is more respectable to be an out and out Nazi than a pedophile. A number of high ranking officials in Trump's administration and in the youth wing of the GOP can be justly described as Nazis. Yet the world keeps turning because what once was an unconscionable horror/shame in the aftermath of WWII is normalized. What leftists, the decaying authentically capitalist-liberal center, and right-wing radicals can all agree on is that pedophilia is a moral horror. No Kings erupted with millions of demonstrators, many carrying signs calling for the release of the so-called "Epstein List" accusing the GOP of being a party of "pedophile protectors" and sexual predators etc. As I've warned in the past, especially in my article concerning the Kamala campaign and their use of Kendrick's "Not Like Us" the anti faction on the center-left side of the aisle are ascendant. Democrats have fashioned their own kind of QAnon tier conspiracism and its being weaponized into a kind of anti-Trump counter-populism, not the rejection of populism as some users of this forum might hope and imagine, but a counter-populism that is quite often just as stupid as Trumpism. This is what Democrats must do to gain power. And, just like how Biden and Obama instructed social media platforms to crackdown on their opponents, Trump has been seeking to leverage broad censorship powers of his own. We are at a point where neither side feels capable of governing without censorship. And this is not uniquely American as Western European governments, most of whom are broadly unpopular, have rolled out sweeping globally coordinated online censorship measures coming in conjunction with those online censorship measures emanating from corporate America, American red states, and the Trump White House. This isn't happening for no reason, they are preparing for a storm of some type, whether that be civil unrest or even civil war within the West (Britain is a prime candidate for this) or for an upcoming World War, they have decided that business as usual in terms of the freedom of online discourse and organizing is unsustainable. Rather luckily for us they've been pretty incompetent in their implementation of this... at least for now. But the globally coordinated scope of it all, coordinated between the radical right wing American state and the center/center-left European governments that nominally hate each other, and were talking about preparation for military conflict with each other at the start of 2025 belies both false dichotomies and the notion that they are too incompetent or divided to carry out extensive censorship. Its likely they can do this if they really put their minds and resources into it. I remember when libertarians used to debate the age of consent on facebook under their legal names and now with the possible exception of X (as the censorship algorithm is likely broken by seeking to accomodate Elon's chud army) and perhaps comments on instagram that can be interpreted as trolling, serious MAP activism is not allowed on any platforms that normal people use. And regarding what is allowed now... if it gets too big it will be quashed, much like how Zeeb's viral Alice Day post led to Elon Musk personally intervening to ban Zeeb from the platform.

The question for me as regards reformist/moderate MAPs are two-fold 1. We live in revolutionary times, if anyone doubts that I think the sweeping scale of Trump's violation of American norms and his reconfiguration of the American state and economy prove this, so how can a moderate strategy, much less an anti-reform strategy (and anti-C is anti-reform to a considerable extent) work in this era? 2. So little is being offered to MAPs from the mainstream that you might as well become revolutionary, as Poik put it, the act of loving a child sexually is so radical and so extreme in the Western mainstream that you might as well become a revolutionary because all the forces of Western society appear arrayed against you

Anyone who knows me knows that I don't advocate for picking between left or right antis. What I do advocate for is people look at the material conditions and forces that play on the ground and see who we can work with and what's exploitable. Right now, sympathizers are more likely to be found on the extremes, the destabilizing forces that are wrecking business-as-usual in the West. If you want the establishment to grant you something than I'd recommend aiding and amplifying the extremists that want to overthrow the establishment until the establishment begins throwing some sops your way. But then, by the time things get that far, you might as well go all the way because I don't see a long time movement goal like abolishing the age of consent as we know it on anything like a near or mid term timeline as long as the current establishments remain in power.

For simplicity sake in this post, when I talk about revolution or revolutionary forces, I will define it as those seeking radical extreme change of the existing order through radical means and not the Marxist definition of revolution, which is when one class seizes power from another.

Peter Turchin argues that MAGA is a revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow the established elites. For Turchin, revolutions become likely under two conditions: 1. there are more elite aspirants than there are positions available for them in the true elite, this leads to rulebreaking of "the game" on the part of elite aspirants and the formation of counter-elites seeking to take power from existing elites 2. High inequality and deteriorating, stagnating, or living conditions that are improving too slowly to ameliorate the frustration of the masses. America in the run up to Trump met both conditions and so does much of Europe. This is also why things are not going to go back to normal when Trump's second term ends or if he is compelled to leave the White House in some kind of coup or palace coup. The conditions that made Trump possible exist independent of him and the fact that he's been president twice (with the second term being far more extreme) means the game is changed, Trump has spent his second term exercising federal power to enact his agenda in an unprecedented and often unconstitutional scale -- this use of executive power is something that leading democrats always insisted to their voters was impossible when pressed on their latest feckless inaction or betrayal.

Europe will likely face a similar crack up. Keir Starmer's approval rating is in the low teens, the most successful and long-running democratic political party in the world, the British conservative party is facing extinction while the far right Reform party is slated to sweep the next election. Most elected PMs in Western Europe have approval ratings in the teens to low 20s and this is democracy according to the centrist neoliberal establishment. But this will not last, especially as the economy deteriorates -- and its foregone conclusion that it will, and would have, as business cycles last 5-7 years, we're reaching the end of the post-covid business cycle imo but decades of mismanagement, incompetence, and slow-boil popular immiseration will combine to make this next recession truly apocalyptic. This isn't really going to last and Europe won't be spared, however much it fashions itself as different from America, in reality its usually just 10-15 years behind America. Not to mention the heavy handed and extreme means being used to maintain the pro-American, pro-EU centrist post-WWII traditional establishment in Europe is provoking extreme discontent and opposition. Britain now jails more people for social media posts than Russia. Starmer's government is a laughable collection of unforced errors like giving 16 year olds the right to vote and then banning porn, putting out feelers to ban VPNs, encrypted chats, and encrypted hard-drives, running a pro-business austerity government that alienates his older working class base, running hard right immigration which mostly has the effect of dispiriting portions of the identity focused younger PMC-derived New Left, which after all is the most business-friendly incarnation of the Left because accommodating someone's identity costs little to nothing, while putting wind in the sails of Farage by vindicating his anti-immigration stance. Other inexplicables include banning free refills of soda at restaurants as if what the average consumer wants to hear right now is the government is going to prevent them from even one of the slight creature comforts thats still reasonably priced in a cost of living crisis.

I only mentioned it briefly but is Civil War in the UK impossible? I would say no because of growing immiseration, the collapse of long-standing pillars of stability like the conservative party and soon Labour plus with semi-trillionaire Elon Musk agitating for the collapse of Britain's government daily and paid-Israeli agent Tommy Robinson regularly putting on violent race riots in British streets. Not many people are aware of the fact that on the eve of WWI, Britain was already on the verge of a civil war, if not already in one, as the extreme Ulster-loyalist politician Edward Carson was forming paramilitary death squads provoking an Irish counter-reaction. Lenin described this movement as a "true revolution from the Right" as all the safeguards of Britain and its constitution was no match against a hardcore of Anglo-Irish aristocrats and their sympathizers who feared for their estates. Given that the Irish population in Britain itself was (and is) substantial and liberal public opinion had moved towards more freedom for Ireland this was producing considerable strife in Britain itself. Lo, and behold, the 1916 Easter Rising that occured during WWI was a manifestation of this post-poned Civil War.

I think I proved my point, Britain is just the place where decay is most visible as its gone from being one of the richest countries in the world in 1900 to being one of the poorest in northwestern europe in per capita and wage terms plus overall industrial power and share of world trade but far from alone as decline has been a feature of post-2008 Western economies. And once a people attain greatness delusions die hard and the memory of the British empire is probably one reason while the UK military authors white papers claiming that the UK can fight and win against Russia and China simultaneously but as it turns out the government had to rush to intervene when Britain's sole steel plant -- owned by China-- was slated to be shut down. Not fighting much of a world war without steel, are we? But these fantasies are more liable to end up kickstarting a process where Britons end up fighting itself than they end up fighting each other.

Things just can't go on like this and won't. For now, I think many of you are trapped in the paradigm of liberal-center/traditional right with Populism Inc. But I think these dichotomies, while false in many ways when you dig below the surface, are liable to break down. A Civil War in the West will probably end up being more like the Syrian Civil War, many competing sides with many competing ideologies. It may not get that far but I think the old establishment that many non-revolutionary MAPs grew up with in the 80s-2000s is not long for this world. There's probably more benefit to destabilization and populism than pleading with the establishment. Your asking to undo more than century of ever-increasing anti-MAP prejudice which only saw brief respites in the 60s/70s-- notably a period of political, cultural, and economic instability not stability. Power concedes nothing without a demand as Frederick Douglas said and I'm not aware of any movements where powerful interests were at play and reforms were won where that wasn't a threat of a revolutionary fringe or vaguard that suddenly made the reformists seem more reasonable. Reformists are easily bamboozled and tricked people and many of them are cowards at heart.

I think the case for a MAP revolutionary strategy is much better than a reformist strategy. Reformists are liable to not even be heard without a revolutionary strategy. And I think thats the contradiction that drove that VIRPED guy to do what he did, he wanted reform and empathy at best but the establishment and climate has become so oppressive and rigid that he felt he needed to grab a gun and threaten to blow his brains out. Without revolutionary strategy and organization to harness these feelings of anger and despair to productive ends, tragedies like this are liable to repeat and potentially on a far worse scale. I'm not even saying I have all the answers, no one has tried to craft a truly militant revolutionary strategy for an oppressed minority. Gays and trans just latched on to the 60s/70s rebellion and their rebellion was percieved as safe enough to institutionalize in the 80s/90s. The coalitions of alliances and the politics at play now are not necessarily the same as the ones available to them then. They also made compromises that led directly to us not merely being not liberated but becoming more oppressed making MAPs the most stigmatized and criminalized sexual minority to ever exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajlLd26RE8

That's a great analysis, you put into words a lot of what I've been thinking.
Still have no idea what such a strategy would entail though.

What could a "MAP revolutionary strategy" look like?

I think that repression of sexuality is a powerful tool for the state to control its people. For this reason, when the gay movement could no longer be ignored in the west, LGTB rights were regularised in such a way that a minimal number of changes had to be made to the system.

The trend seems to be that other structures like patriarchy, where sexual coercion is the norm, are giving in power to the state, that legislates over the valid forms of sexuality. So coercion is diminishing while repression —or, more accurately, regularisation— is increasing.

I don't think this trend will stop without a revolution that turns everything upside-down, because sexual repression is just to powerful for the state to give it away. So I agree, just thinking that AMSC can be legalised and everything else stays the same seems a bit naïve to me. It seems incompatible with our ideas of childhood and family, much more so than the gay movement.

While I am not a fan of our civilization, it has a lot of inertia and a bit of activism is not going to overthrow it. And also, a minority being stigmatised is not enough of a reason for such a radical change (probably greater than the French and Russian revolutions), as much as one would like to act on one's attraction. And you have to take into account the risk that removing the power from the state on people's sexualities (repression) could result in some group of people taking this power in the (arguably worse) form of coercion.

BLueRibbon wrote: Wed Oct 22, 2025 9:50 am What could a "MAP revolutionary strategy" look like?

I've been working on this for some time. You can ask Poik, I have hundreds of pages of unpublished material on theory, history and strategy that I've been seeking to possibly shape into a book. I won't pretend to have all the answers, the MAP movement is still a nascent and cutting edge movement, I don't think there's any movement that faces all our particular issues or any other movement that has faced the same type of challenges we face to the same extent. It starts with organizing ourselves so we can take collective action in ways that are not suicidal and minimizing risks. It starts with identifying the people who are most likely to want to hear our message and act on it... spoiler alert that will likely be continually impoverished, shat on, and sexually frustrated young men rather than 60 year old liberals with vacation homes and millions of dollars in their retirement accounts. I don't really see any openings coming from non anti-systemic forces. And also, to the point of who we should work with, I've always said there's not much real point gaming this if MAPs aren't organized and capable of practicing enough self-defense and spreading propaganda to sympathetic elements to make that juice worth the squeeze. No one in politics will want to help MAPs if can't bring anything to the table under their own power. Politics is about cui bono and that's always a question of quid pro quo. Now how can MAPs remain well-ordered, disciplined, and principled enough while courting which ever forces might aid them? That is a different question. The best thing that can happen for MAPs is Western states, which are police states, in spite of whatever propaganda you might have heard to the contrary, collapse, are diminished, or are dealing with so many different internal and external threats that it gives MAPs an opportunity to organize relatively unmolested. But this will also not wholly be a question of official state-centered politics as there are many freaks out there who'd like to make a name for themselves hurting or killing us. So, meetings of MAPs when conducted in person would preferably be armed to head off the vigilante threat. A MAP movement that can organize and defend itself can go on the offensive. We have no need of fantasies of armed MAPs capturing the centers of power just that MAPs can exercise power. I do think if MAPs want to hold a large-scale public protest at some point it will probably have to be armed.

At the present date, I think low risk strategies like online propaganda and outreach strategies are the best use of limited numbers and resources. Secondary work conducted by MAPs should largely consist of amplifying the forces that are undermining Western state capacity and trust and social cohesion within Western publics. Amplify right wing radicals and extreme leftists to put the fire on the liberal capitalist establishment; some might support any anti-social, anti-government libertarian project that's sure to undermine the State and making the working class furious. At this point, discord and strife are pretty much priced in. You have to break the establishment if you want the space for MAP voices to be heard in the first place, things have to become bad enough and weird enough, confusing enough that people become open to radical and unthinkable ideas. Things have to get worse before they get better. This was the key insight of Russian Revolutionary Nikolai Cherneyshevsky; the American Revolutionary John Adams also expressed a similar idea. Don't save the Western liberal status quo that has reduced MAPs to the most persecuted, criminalized, and stigmatized sexual minority in human history -- help break it. We actually might get a Diddy pardon and a Ghislane pardon out of Trump 2.0 was that ever in the cards if Kamala became president? Trump 2.0 does represent a moral collapse of the Western universe. The question is should we try to stop it? By no means, that bourgeois liberal moralist claptrap is precisely why MAPs and Sex Offenders are treated as subhuman vermin with no rights, unpeople. Will we have friends who are liberal? Sure. Should we help save them and the liberal order? By no means. Not only should we not raise a finger to save the collapsing liberal West but we should do everything we can't to speed up that collapse until we start getting offered real revolutionary change. Don't help or offer to save anything. Only by being willing to let Western society go to the dogs can MAPs get change. MAPs have been exploited by the political establishment for decades which sometimes puts out feelers to get them interested in non-MAP causes while ramping up the oppression and propaganda to please anti-MAP goycattle. Only when MAPs feel comfortable letting an uncaring world go to the dogs will they see real progress. There are many MAPs that are intelligent and care deeply about non-MAP causes who don't raise their voices when they hear bigoted antis shit on them. Its time to let the world hand itself in that respect. They shouldn't benefit from our talents. Let them save their world on their own; we have to put our efforts into building our own. And a MAP revolution will be a new world however it comes. Nobody alive really knows what it will look like to have MAP liberation in modern (somewhat) sexually free societies. Children raised in that world will be quite different from even those of us who style ourselves as pioneers pushing for its realization.

Learning to undeny wrote: Wed Oct 22, 2025 6:04 pm I think that repression of sexuality is a powerful tool for the state to control its people. For this reason, when the gay movement could no longer be ignored in the west, LGTB rights were regularised in such a way that a minimal number of changes had to be made to the system.

The trend seems to be that other structures like patriarchy, where sexual coercion is the norm, are giving in power to the state, that legislates over the valid forms of sexuality. So coercion is diminishing while repression —or, more accurately, regularisation— is increasing.

I don't think this trend will stop without a revolution that turns everything upside-down, because sexual repression is just to powerful for the state to give it away. So I agree, just thinking that AMSC can be legalised and everything else stays the same seems a bit naïve to me. It seems incompatible with our ideas of childhood and family, much more so than the gay movement.

While I am not a fan of our civilization, it has a lot of inertia and a bit of activism is not going to overthrow it. And also, a minority being stigmatised is not enough of a reason for such a radical change (probably greater than the French and Russian revolutions), as much as one would like to act on one's attraction. And you have to take into account the risk that removing the power from the state on people's sexualities (repression) could result in some group of people taking this power in the (arguably worse) form of coercion.

And also, a minority being stigmatised is not enough of a reason for such a radical change (probably greater than the French and Russian revolutions), as much as one would like to act on one's attraction.

The cool thing about this is that the State has overreached so much it basically encompasses the entirety of the male population. Most of the male population is attracted to illegal teens and they are forced to ignore that attraction because the state says no. Buying sex from prostitutes is a crime or highly regulated/restricted in many countries. Consent laws and the legal definition of rape are so open-ended that practically any men can become a rapist. Any male accused of sexual improprietary is tried and (nearly) always found guilty in the court of public opinion and has their lives ruined. All this makes one wonder why any MAP would support the LGBT movement when its been at the forefront of the savage feminist counter-revolution against the sexual revolution (for heterosexual men) that took shape in the post-war period. You need serious brain damage to support the LG portion of that movement which is mostly just the most savage enforcers of 2nd wave feminist orthodoxies. Only the bi, trans, and queer portion even has a whiff of anything liberatory or revolutionary about it and even then its already basically washed at this point. I would only associate with trannies because their walking sex crime factories filled with vril and Nietzschean will to power that are waging an assault on the gilded cage created by the sell-out gay rights movement and their feminist allies. And here I mainly mean mtfs as they, for a time, managed to short-circuit the state-sanctioned criminalization, regulation, and ostracism of the male body and male desire. But even they are losing now. So its back to the drawing board.

And you have to take into account the risk that removing the power from the state on people's sexualities (repression) could result in some group of people taking this power in the (arguably worse) form of coercion.

The only way out is through. Many of these things will happen independently of us, I just want us to be prepared and have a strategy when they do. But if that has to happen then it will happen. I really don't see how things are going to get worse for MAPs then they already are. Much of the low-hanging fruit of MAP repression is accomplished and I think another group as you put it would have bigger fish to fry. Sure I guess punishments for MAPs could become more extreme but that's just a more radical extension of the present liberal status quo. If the Supreme Court decides to hear the challenge to gay marriage on Nov 7th and strikes it down, I see no reason not to be happy. The more crabs that thought they escaped the bucket that are forced down into the bucket with us the more likely we will be able to get something going. Gays may actually have to associate with us again much like at the beginning of the gay rights movement.

That would be a good thing and not a bad thing, at least medium to long term. Its not like that many gays are even married