Hopelessness

[Fragment]

Since I've been unemployed recently I've had a lot of time to spend issues relating to minor attraction- AMSC, PIM, sexual offending, stigma, etc.

But the more I read, the more I see an unbridgeable divide between the truth and the general public. While I want to be an activist, the inability of normal people to accept even very basic facts about reality is disheartening. People are so stuck in their paradigm that they can't consider the possibility that there may be more shades of grey than the societal narrative allows.

This isn't even just about pro-c/ anti-c positions. Rather how our sexuality is positioned in society as a whole. Even at its most homophobic, society never analysed homosexuals through the lens of criminality in the way MAP sexuality is analysed now. Half of our "supporters" in the mental health community have come from a background in supporting "victims". "NOMAP" is still fundamentally looking at us through a lens of criminality- whether we offend or don't offend- as if that is the most important distinction.

We are locked in a proverbial prison cell of concrete and trying to dig our way out with a spoon. As loud as we yell, no-one listens except those locked in here with us.

[BLueRibbon]

The situation is quite grim.

However, NOMAP made a lot of progress in explaining the difference between attraction and action.

There is a lot of support for AI PIM from the public. This shows a softening of MAP hate.

Germany has reduced sentencing for PIM possession

The UK has more or less done away with prison sentences for most cases of PIM possession.

Chile has standardized its AoC, reducing the AoC for boys to match that of girls.

It's bad, but there are signs of progress.

[Pharmakon]

I agree with BLR, but also I think you are wrong when you write:

Even at its most homophobic, society never analysed homosexuals through the lens of criminality in the way MAP sexuality is analysed now.

On the contrary, I think the parallels are quite close. There are important differences, and you can certainly argue that when society was most homophobic it essentially treated gays as pedos, so that the only thing the gay movement managed to do was disrupt that identification under the "consenting adults" banner. (Scott De Orio's dissertation gives a good account of this.)

You can see the same thing happening now with trans. The erotophobic authoritarian engineers of social conformity do keep using us as the basis for their attacks, which has to make one wonder how liberation can ever reach us, the actual bogeymen. But this occurs in the context of their gradual retreat, which gives me hope. Once they have decisively lost their battles against promiscuity, homosexuality, and gender nonconformity -- all battles they are gradually losing, though it's always two steps forward and one step back -- there will be no sexual minority left safe to stigmatize except us. At that point we stop being a tool to attack gays or trans people and they have to attack us directly. Then, perhaps, we will find ways to actually be heard.

While I agree this "isn't even just about pro-c / anti-c positions," it is importantly about that. Overcoming this division in our community is the most important step we could possibly take toward achieving a voice and possibly being heard. I think Mu is doing important work toward that. I think you are doing a ton of extremely important work toward that. Whether it will pay off in the end I don't know, but at least you and Mu are trying.

DE ORIO DISSERTATION:

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... orio_1.pdf

[Fragment]

On the contrary, I think the parallels are quite close. There are important differences, and you can certainly argue that when society was most homophobic it essentially treated gays as pedos, so that the only thing the gay movement managed to do was disrupt that identification under the "consenting adults" banner. (Scott De Orio's dissertation gives a good account of this.)

I think what I feel is the biggest difference is that homosexuality was seen as being a deviant behavior that could hurt society. But minor-attraction is seen as having distinct, individual victims. The "protection" mindset is a unique hurdle that feels hard to overcome. People supported gays with "well I guess they're not really hurting anyone", but we're seen as "hurting someone" (even if the facts don't bear this out... even though most MAPs have no desire to hurt anyone). I'm not even sure how best to go about trying to shift that narrative.

While I agree this "isn't even just about pro-c / anti-c positions," it is importantly about that. Overcoming this division in our community is the most important step we could possibly take toward achieving a voice and possibly being heard. I think Mu is doing important work toward that. I think you are doing a ton of extremely important work toward that. Whether it will pay off in the end I don't know, but at least you and Mu are trying.

I did write about the importance of AoC when I was in a slightly more optimistic mood, here:
https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=192

I still can't tell if we're actually getting through very much to anti-c people. I had a couple of anti-c identifying people on BoyMoment thumbs up 16/12.

I'm trying to push for more unity, but we still haven't seen an influx of members to Mu from other boards yet. Keeping active in various other communities itself feels like a full time job.

But I am trying.

I wish we had a base of operations. A face-to-face community. Online activism is isolating and exhausting. Even when it's only internally focused.

[Pharmakon]

I wish we had a base of operations. A face-to-face community. Online activism is isolating and exhausting. Even when it's only internally focused.

Agreed, but having done a good deal of face-to-face activism with NAMBLA in the 1980s, I can assure you it comes with plenty of its own frustrations. Instead of reading, thinking and writing you wind up responsible for mailings and meetings. Online trolls can at least be ignored. Dysfunctional people (not to mention the government spies) who show up at chapter meetings are not dealt with so easily. My recollections of that period of my activism are mostly of boring administrative tasks and trying to manage crises (mostly provoked by boylovers making stupid choices in their lives that came back to hurt everyone else connected with them).

Still, it did have its benefits, and I wish we could still do some of that, combined with the kind of communication the internet now makes possible.

[Fragment]

On the contrary, I think the parallels are quite close. There are important differences, and you can certainly argue that when society was most homophobic it essentially treated gays as pedos, so that the only thing the gay movement managed to do was disrupt that identification under the "consenting adults" banner. (Scott De Orio's dissertation gives a good account of this.)
DE ORIO DISSERTATION:

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstrea ... orio_1.pdf

The anecdote at the very beginning in a sense supports my argument that the "criminality" surrounding MAPs is worse than what homosexuals faced (at least in the 20th century)- Martinez got 8 years' civil commitment for cross-dressing and sexual deviancy. Then the famous cases- Turning got probation. Oscar Wilde got 2 years. It's true that sentencing for sex crimes has gotten harsher in general (including for adult rape), but even if sentences for MAPs were halved, it's almost definite that the average would still be higher than for sodomy/ homosexuality offences.

Iraq has a maximum penalty of 15 years for same-sex relationships. 3 years for being transgender.

And not to mention, the inability to even properly know what sentences MAPs are getting for consensual sex since those crimes are conflated with rapes.

Even without any kind of age of consent reform coming out of Rind (1998), I wish his push for rape and AMSC to be treated separately had been taken up.

[PorcelainLark]

A few things I consider: does everyone care about AMSC as much as they act like they do? I think a great deal of the outward expression of hate is fear of being perceived as a MAP or MAP sympathizer.
Even if they are afraid, does that mean the fear is unchangeable? If in the past homosexuality disturbed people because they were unfamiliar with it, maybe something similar would be the case with pedophilia. Like if people were more exposed to it, it wouldn't be as frightening.
Is there a point at which the cost of "protecting children" outweighs the benefit? I get the impression law enforcement is stretched thin, childcare is so expensive people can barely afford to have kids, the education system has been failing for a long time. I believe that the standard of living we try to have for children will guarantee population collapse unless we lower it.
Does paranoia work as a functioning basis of a society? The more paranoid a society becomes, the less stable. If you can't trust anyone, how can you maintain laws? So either paranoia abates and we get a more stable society or paranoia intensifies and we descend into anarchy, either way the current state is unsustainable.

Over all, I think social media is warping our perception; everyone is frightened of how they are perceived by others because of the threat of doxxing or losing a job, etc. So we shouldn't take people's attitudes at face value. I think our problem is connected to the bigger problem of people trying to portray themselves as perfect and beyond reproach, which is why there is a mental health epidemic.

[Kara32]

Again I am not an expert at all on your history. I even cannot work out all the letters like AMSC. Will try and read up on them so I can respect where you all coming from. So this only my view and if it is naive then for that I apologise.
From my experiences, I really believe it is basically a "witch hunt" mainly caused by the media and some members of society. I doubt very much that any have read the actual research on MAP's. Indeed they do all they can to stop others reading it by terrorising people who start to have a different view. They will make sure those people are warned that supporting a group of people that just express their love in a different way. Now if society was allowed to think for itself, the heat would instantly be taken out of the topic. I not saying everyone would suddenly support you or your struggle for acceptance but at least there could be a reasoned debate.. I cannot lie, I often back at of discussion with others, even around my brother due to how these issues are dealt with. I can only say that I then feel terrible for not being strong enough.
When I can get in a discussion, I tend to bring up two things. I then hope that the person I am talking too goes away and thinks on what I said. Firstly I bring up issues, such as a female teacher sleeping with a boy in their school. Whilst the media does it thing, often other males, mostly older will comment how they wish they had a teacher like that or that the boy was 'a lucky sod'
Secondly I talk to them about how the other half of an age relationship feels. The boy my brother was close to, he was removed from a loving home, he was questioned by different services for days. He was already in a foster home, so how did he feel. He was told to try make things worse, he was never given any counselling or support. Wow that shows how society cared for him. Then he had to deal with being told that my brother had killed himself. They never changed his phone or email amd this boy was basically dumped back into his birth family clutches. A drug crazed mum, great environment. Now I did reach out to him. Maybe it wrong but have tried to offer support as best I can. Now I thought am i doing something bad or am i going to hear things i dont like. Guess what, i get to hear that it was this boy who tried to develop the relationship. Not his words but his actions. He said he just liked older. How did society treat this boy. They tried to get him to say things he knew was wrong and when he didnt play ball they crucified him. Chucked back from where he came to without a care in the world. No follow up, just a hey the guy is dead now.
I dont discuss all that with people just the main points and I hope they go away and think about it. You will always get the argument about sex killers and rapist in the news. It an easily won argument when point out that there far more adult to adult rapist and murderers and that we not proposing making straight sex illegal. Normally shuts them up.
In our views here I read that you hope that you get accepted like gay people. Not sure if that totally right, if I am wrong I apologise. However are gay people really accepted by people of influence. I reckon people who run societies basically dont accept gays, it just the masses won through. However if you look they still get treated like crap, especially trans people. Who the new group to be cashed about. Homosexuality did one great thing, they won by getting through to the masses, not by changing the politicians or social services views or the tabloids.
Now I totally can see why you see only hopefulness. As I said in my intro, I can never understand your pain. I wish that society would actually understand that love is just that love. Who we love should not matter. How you change societies views, I dont know the answer and it one hell of a fight.
Finally though, from reading peoples posts. Many of you are leaders for MAPs, you may not have wanted this, you may have lost hope but you still the leaders. You bravely created this forum, allowed others including me to reach out. You are giving hope to other MAPs who one day will find places like here. You will give the next generation of MAPs and the ones they love and I mean myself and a boy who thinks his world come to an end hope. Plus MAPs who find that support from you the ability to carry on the fight for acceptance. You as the current leaders are not likely to win. That sad and awful but you will be part of that win in the future. I have no right to ask you to do that or be brave but I think it the truth.

[Kara32]

I must apologise for my spelling and grammer. It was a long post.

[Fragment]

Again I am not an expert at all on your history. I even cannot work out all the letters like AMSC.

https://www.map-union.org/about/faq
https://www.map-union.org/encyclopedia/glossary

I don't know if you've read these pages yet, but they are a good start.