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Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 10:45 am
by InuYasha
What do you think about transracial people and the very concept of racial or ethnic self-identification?

There's a double standard in society: transgender people are recognized, but transraciality is denied as a phenomenon. Meanwhile, it's a very real phenomenon. People can suffer from the discrepancy between their internal race and the race assigned to them by society. And if the very concept of "race" is recognized as a social construct, then there's no reason why it can't be changed.

"Not valid" is a label and a black mark that people (mostly those who identify as Americans) use to deny empathy, understanding, and recognition to a particular group. Essentially, it's a reimagining of the nearly century-old concept of "social degenerate."

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 12:47 pm
by Not Forever
For me, we need to put some points clearly.

The transgender phenomenon exists because gender identity dysphoria can be diagnosed, and it does not necessarily have anything to do with social constructs. Just like body dysphoria does not necessarily relate to social constructs, even if one’s dysphoria may be influenced by certain imagery present in society.

One must be careful about what is meant when talking about social constructs. Labeling diseases in a certain way is artificial; the disease as a phenomenon itself is not. Saying that race is a social construct… is itself a construct—I’m not sure if I’m making myself clear.

That said, by the law of large numbers, I am also convinced that dysphoria regarding ethnic identity could exist, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it were more common among immigrants or people immersed in cultures different from their family or community. But until a psychologist diagnoses it, puts a label on it, in fact, it cannot be discussed as if this phenomenon actually exists.

Not to mention that, given the existence of phenomena like racism (and self-racism), a psychologist’s response to someone wanting to lighten or darken their skin could simply be that they hate themselves less or blame society.

Let it be clear, my arguments start from the position that I give no validity to groups. However, I recognize that individuals experience discomfort over different things, that they have disorders concerning various issues, and I consider these disorders irrational. Therefore, potentially anything could exist, and since we have decided to give certain disorders a certain weight, I believe that for consistency we should give the same weight to all others.

Whether this perspective of mine is a good or bad thing, I’m not sure, because to avoid chaos due to the sheer number of disorders any individual could have, at some point one would need to draw a line and assert that individual problems should not involve the public.

(My argument also includes phenomena such as transage, etc.)

I’ll add a note.
A transgender person will try to appear as themselves in the gender in which they want to be perceived and/or want to perceive themselves. Here, the issues of documents and, secondarily, pronouns (caused by the documents) may arise. From this point of view, a transgender person might require validation from the state that a transracial person does not, since they will not be explicitly labeled every day based on their race. At least, where I live, no one says, “Hey, come here, Chinese” when talking to a Chinese person.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 2:28 pm
by Learning to undeny
I would recognise trans-racial people: they could in theory transition even physically. For trangender people, many of them are "born in the wrong body", but I don't see how one could have been born the wrong race. But if they want to transition to a different race, I have no problem.

Would racism get better or worse if trans-racial people were recognised? Probably neither. And for such a personal decision, I don't think people of their source or target race need to get offended. One point of contention arises when one race is oppressed. Wouldn't many of these people feel pushed to change their race? I don't think that's likely, but still, the priority in this case should be to end racism and not to allow trans-racial identities.

Perhaps an ancient form of trans-identity is religious conversion. People were basically born their religion. Generally, I consider it a good thing that people can change their religion, but it is important to be aware of risks such as forced conversion. Powers could also use transracial and other identities as tools of oppression; again, mostly so if there is sharp inequality.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 4:33 pm
by InuYasha
Not Forever wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 12:47 pm For me, we need to put some points clearly.

The transgender phenomenon exists because gender identity dysphoria can be diagnosed, and it does not necessarily have anything to do with social constructs. Just like body dysphoria does not necessarily relate to social constructs, even if one’s dysphoria may be influenced by certain imagery present in society.
But the transgender people always existed in history, although the modern concept of gender dysphoria were invented only in XX century. In non-western countries there was a special category for those ones, who are in modern times could be described as transgender. Gender is social construct of behavioural stereotypes, while sex is biological condition. So it possible to say, that, when the physical characteristics, that belong to one or another group of people, is biological phenomenon, the concept that it place a person in a certain racial group is social construction.
Not Forever wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 12:47 pm That said, by the law of large numbers, I am also convinced that dysphoria regarding ethnic identity could exist, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it were more common among immigrants or people immersed in cultures different from their family or community. But until a psychologist diagnoses it, puts a label on it, in fact, it cannot be discussed as if this phenomenon actually exists.

Not to mention that, given the existence of phenomena like racism (and self-racism), a psychologist’s response to someone wanting to lighten or darken their skin could simply be that they hate themselves less or blame society.
But what about the cases, when the person have a dysphoria, not caused by any kind of oppression against them, but rather because of internal feelings, that they belong to other group, and desire to change the external characteristics of their appearance, and be included in that group. I am convinced that these people are existed in society, even if they are not recognized.
Not Forever wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 12:47 pm I’ll add a note.
A transgender person will try to appear as themselves in the gender in which they want to be perceived and/or want to perceive themselves. Here, the issues of documents and, secondarily, pronouns (caused by the documents) may arise. From this point of view, a transgender person might require validation from the state that a transracial person does not, since they will not be explicitly labeled every day based on their race. At least, where I live, no one says, “Hey, come here, Chinese” when talking to a Chinese person.
A transracial person can also experience suffering due to the effects of misunderstanding and rejection of their identity, both by the society of their assigned race at birth and by the society of the race, with which they feel an internal connection.

One of the few public activists currently advocating for MAPs is also transracial and transaged person.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 4:43 pm
by InuYasha
Learning to undeny wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 2:28 pm I would recognise trans-racial people: they could in theory transition even physically. For trangender people, many of them are "born in the wrong body", but I don't see how one could have been born the wrong race. But if they want to transition to a different race, I have no problem.

Would racism get better or worse if trans-racial people were recognised? Probably neither. And for such a personal decision, I don't think people of their source or target race need to get offended. One point of contention arises when one race is oppressed. Wouldn't many of these people feel pushed to change their race? I don't think that's likely, but still, the priority in this case should be to end racism and not to allow trans-racial identities.

Perhaps an ancient form of trans-identity is religious conversion. People were basically born their religion. Generally, I consider it a good thing that people can change their religion, but it is important to be aware of risks such as forced conversion. Powers could also use transracial and other identities as tools of oppression; again, mostly so if there is sharp inequality.
For transracialism, in addition to the feeling of incongruence between one's own body and one's internal feelings, cultural perception will also play a role. For example, a person of African descent may feel internally part of a Caucasian culture, or vice versa—a Caucasian person may feel close to an African culture.

I believe that any identity has the right to be recognized, as long as we take a straightforward and consistent approach to recognizing a person's right to be themselves. In and of itself, it cannot cause harm, since feelings are not actions, and the expression of these feelings is not evil in the moral sense (except in extremely rare cases, which are irrelevant in this matter). I'm talking about the moral concept of evil, not a crime in the legal sense, since, for example, for MAPs, living according to their feelings can be a crime in many countries.

You can't "push someone under the bus," as the LGBT community did in 1994, disowning boy-lovers. If all marginalized identities unite, it will be much more difficult for oppressors to fight this coalition.

I don't see how a person changing their race or ethnicity could, in and of itself, lead to racism. The fact that racists might use it says nothing about the phenomenon. Otherwise, we'd have to ban kitchen knives, since they're sometimes used by murderers. Moreover, there have been cases of race-swapping inspired by the desire to fight racism.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 5:00 pm
by John_Doe
The transgender phenomenon exists because gender identity dysphoria can be diagnosed,
It can't be because there is no objective physical testing that can demonstrate subjective first-person mental states. Other people infer mental states in others, ultimately based on projection which isn't scientific (it has nothing to do with sensory observation, ultimately). If 'gender dysphoria' were an inter-subjectively observable brain disorder that wouldn't be the subjective feeling of an emotional dissatisfaction with the gender of one's body (whether it's rooted in a sense of it being out-of-place or someone else's body or just finding it unappealing or whatever) that neuroscientists could demonstrate any special authority in, at best it could be a symptom of that brain disorder that someone other than the person with the disorder could understand more about than the patient themselves. We could theoretically find that same brain disorder in a mindless philosophical zombie. If a person feels a persisting negative emotional response to or dissatisfaction with the gender of their body they cannot be mistaken about that, if their belief about whether or not they have that experience is rooted in experience itself; which is self-evident, and not subjective logic or theorizing. What's 'probable' for the therapist (in terms of the patient's mental state) can be conclusively supported or ruled out by the patient, if we're clear on what we mean by certain terms, so the very concept of psychiatric diagnosis is completely incoherent (it's crazy that people understand this when you straightforwardly ask them, 'What am I thinking about right now?' We generally understand, I would hope, that even 'body language analysis' is a probability thing, not a guarantee, but we can't connect the dots when it comes to psychiatric authority).
But until a psychologist diagnoses it, puts a label on it, in fact, it cannot be discussed as if this phenomenon actually exists.
The authority that we project on to psychologists is something that truly shocks me and if I were concerned about overusing that word, I don't think it would be overstated here. I often feel as though I'm living in the Twilight Zone (although I could say that in regard to many different conventional values and beliefs) because the argument against psychology is so straightforward and 'obvious,' to me. I find the idea that we can't discuss our own presumably unique experiences or those of others with them until some kind of input or acknowledgment from people whose only reference for the nature of any given emotional or mental state would have to be introspection completely absurd. At best, collecting data (about something people self-report) would be useful in terms of establishing how common a problem is likely to be but not whether or not it does or could exist at all. It's the same thing with the effects of child-adult erotic/sexual intimacy, no study needs to confirm that some children don't or might not suffer as a result of it for someone who has had positive or neutral sexual experiences with an adult as a child or if we assume that people who claim to aren't lying about their experience.

I also think that some kind of racial, ethnic or cultural dysphoria is common among immigrants and minorities and members of a dominant demographic in any given country as well. At some point when I was a child, pre-teen age, I was ashamed of being black/African. I remember hating my hair (at least because it was difficult to manage) and being embarrassed by my heritage (my family is from Zambia but we've lived in Canada since I was 3). That changed when I was 12 (I became interested in hip hop and African/African-American cultures, black studies, Malcolm X, etc.). In the 8th grade, I was really afraid of becoming 'whitewashed' and insecure about the idea that Africans aren't 'black' and division between people of African descent (e.g. Africans vs. African-Americans vs. Afro-Caribbean people). I still considered myself to be a pan-Africanist but I think I largely outgrew that insecurity by the 9th grade, although the 'Africans vs. black people' distinction still bothered me (it still rubs me the wrong way on some level but I'm not really 'passionate' about it. It's mostly semantics). I also know that many dark skinned people struggle with their complexion because the standard of beauty, especially for women, tends to be lighter skin (I remember watching a documentary about Sudanese refugees in the U.S and one of the young men said that he felt so self-conscious when he was on the bus because he was so dark skinned; South Sudanese people are known to be very dark, and it broke my heart).

I can remember being in the hospital and this presumably Indian-Canadian nurse seemed impressed when I told her my middle name, like "wow, congratulations, at least you have a normal/English middle name." I remember my friend telling me about an Indian guy in high school who used to disrespect Indian people, I could probably think of a million little anecdotes. It can go in the other direction as well, though. I'm sure there are some 'wiggers' who wish they were black, not necessarily because they want to be racially black but because they identify with hip hop or black American culture ad they want to be able to claim it as their own but they know that they're viewed as an outsider because they're white (Rachel Dolezal is probably one example although she seems to feel more connected to black American culture on a whole and not just hip hop. In high school, it used to irritate me that the 'wiggers' were into what I saw as the most basic shallow surface of hip hop culture but didn't really care about jazz, soul, the Harlem Renaissance, the Garvey movement, etc. Not that I wanted them to, it just seemed to me that they had a really shallow understanding of the culture that they were trying to emulate and I generally thought that they were arrogant posers; I've often thought in retrospect that if they were more interested in, say, jazz or soul or Langston Hughes than in hip hop culture they might have come off as less obnoxious to me, as threatening as I might still have found them, because so much of hip hop culture is built on machismo and egoism and those traits were all the more unlikeable to me when presented by people who didn't even do a credible job in mimicking a culture that they; I assumed, knew nothing about, they were corny to me and I guess I wanted credit for my superiority. They weren't interested in movies like A Lesson Before Dying or black history or Molefi Kete Asante, etc. It used to bother me when I heard some of them say the most vicious anti-African things because I took offense to their attitude that they, as white North Americans, had more in common with black Americans, or blacks from other parts of the diaspora, than I did; and again, they might have thought that I was the nerd but they were corny and try-hard to me, but I'm not bothered by the idea that white Americans have more in common with black Americans than Africans do anymore and I doubt I really have been since I was 17 or so). I wouldn't be surprised if a white Jamaican felt a little self-conscious about being a white person raised in a black culture (s/he might be proud to be West Indian but most people are going to assume all West Indians are black, so the attitude from some people might be that their culture isn't really their culture. By a 'black culture' I mean a culture developed by people of sub-saharan African descent. This plays into my next point, I had forgotten that I wanted to make it).

I think there's the same problem with a trans-racial identity that there is with a trans-gendered or even a trans-age identity. With some people, it's not so much that they would prefer different bodies (although I'm sure that's often the case) but that they feel connected to a culture that is associated with a different racial group. Culture isn't static and when human beings are exposed to each other they influence one another. Blacks can be culturally French, Italian, Japanese, etc. Whites can be culturally Jamaican, sub-saharan African, Foundational African-American, Native American, etc. If you stop restricting people and accept natural free expression or human exchange there might be less of a need to alter someone's appearance or deny objective facts about their ancestry if we differentiate between race or ethnicity and culture in the way that I think we should between gender and stereotypes that we associate with gender. This last point is kind of rushed.
at some point one would need to draw a line and assert that individual problems should not involve the public.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. I have some idea, maybe you're talking about government policy that affects large numbers of people, but individuals should consider other people's problems when it comes to their interactions with them and how widespread a problem is doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not accommodating them in some way is too inconvenient or comes at too high of a cost to one's self. I forgot what I planned to say. In this case, it seems like the solution is to reject exclusion or to entertain someone's misguided beliefs about the nature of identity, the former shouldn't be problem if you want what's best for everyone (so there's no territorialism about one's culture and only wanting one group to practice it) and even if the latter isn't the wisest long-term solution I don't think it's a question of asking people to consider someone else at unnecessary/too high of a cost to themselves.

InuYasha,

I don't really agree with the idea of race as a social construct. It's ultimately an arbitrary concept but so is species. That said, if race is a 'biologically meaningful' concept I don't think it matches entirely with our common sense racial classifications based on observable phenotype.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 5:33 pm
by InuYasha
John_Doe wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 5:00 pm InuYasha,

I don't really agree with the idea of race as a social construct. It's ultimately an arbitrary concept but so is species. That said, if race is a 'biologically meaningful' concept I don't think it matches entirely with our common sense racial classifications based on observable phenotype.
In the US, mainstream politicians claim that race is a social construct. In fact, I think there's a difference between "race" as a set of characteristics (phenotype) and "race" as a social construct conditioned by culture and environment. You're right that a person of any race can assimilate any culture. But I believe that if we consistently follow the discourse of constructivism, then we cannot, without falling into hypocrisy, deny acceptance to a transracial person. And what if a white person sympathizes with Black people so much that they want to fit into their culture? Is that "racist"?

Transgender people have the right to recognition, and they essentially achieved it by the beginning of the 21st century. And everyone understands that there is "biological sex" (associated with the XX or XY chromosome set) and "psychological sex" or gender. Transition changes gender, not chromosome set. In the same way, darkening/lightening the skin would change a person's appearance in accordance with their inner feelings, and not the set of genetic data responsible for race.

If race isn't a social construct, but a biological given, then this opens a kind of slippery slope to the concept that the far-right calls "racial realism"—namely, that different races are not equal in their characteristics and therefore should have different rights.

I believe that this very danger is the reason for the prevailing emphasis on race as a social concept.

Re: Transracial people

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2026 7:05 pm
by Not Forever
I admit that I may be giving too much credit to psychology… from what I’ve heard, it seems that psychologists’ diagnoses of gender dysphoria in minors have a very low margin of error (which I assume means that the “error” would be someone changing their mind during therapy or after transitioning). If that’s true, I’m inclined to give them some credit—at least until someone comes along waving a document that states it’s more or less the same standard as when dealing with self-declarations.

To be clear, for me self-certification would be sufficient, but here we’re talking about the different treatment between transgender and transracial people, and in my view that difference is also due to the authority of psychologists. So even my own opinion of them, I think, has little value when it comes to what I see as the reason why society does not treat transracial people the same way it treats transgender people. (And most likely, society isn’t even aware that the former exist.)
John_Doe wrote: Wed Feb 04, 2026 5:00 pm I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. I have some idea, maybe you're talking about government policy that affects large numbers of people, but individuals should consider other people's problems when [...]
Basically, yes. But more than anything, my problem is that when all these things more or less pile up, and since they are also irrational they can show up in contradictory ways, at a certain point it will be necessary to stop.

That said, I won’t respond to the rest of the comment because I more or less agree with it and find it interesting. I also know a case similar to the one you described, but involving a Japan enthusiast, who even wanted to undergo some cosmetic procedures to conform to Japanese aesthetic standards.