MAP Forum

I was reading Fragment's thread about recent events and I felt like this was an noticeable absence. Has anyone compiled what happened? I remember feeling bad about it at the time. Like I thought the growth in popularity of anime would make people come to terms with MAPs, but instead there was a massive backlash. Instead of becoming a place in the near mainstream where MAPs would be accepted, it became home to a different marginalized identity - transgender people.
I think what epitomized this was what happened with the anituber Digibro. Although I know I shouldn't think this, I always interpreted his transition as a reaction to the backlash against him for being one of the foremost defenders and enthusiasts for lolicon.
Also, there was all the controversy generated by Shädman's drawings (for example making a drawing based off of a famous Youtuber's real life daughter).

I remember the retreat and withdrawal of lolicons from the Western anime subculture as something that depressed me a lot at the time. Just as I was beginning to feel comfortable in my own skin, it felt like the rug was pulled out from under me.
I was thinking of writing about it, if there isn't already an overview.

That would definitely be interesting. It's not something that I know enough about. I think it's somewhat relevant to our history, too, though. Especially relevant is ATF and knowing when the grey zone was established.

I've mostly just been relying on Newgon, MAP Wiki, Wikipedia, BoyWiki and Evil Unveiled to piece the story together so far. Just trying to pull out the things I see as important. Local laws tend not to be as important, but I don't want to ignore them entirely.

Well, part of it is growing pedophobia in Japan, especially now that the age of consent there has increased from 13 with minor misdemeanour laws restricting it, to 16 with a 2-years age-gap exemption for 13-year-olds.

While the lolicon industry in Japan is still vibrant, there are signs that may be changing. Take the IDOLM@STER franchise, where the latest idols are all older than 14. Compare and contrast with past entries, that involved idols as young as 9. Now, keep in mind that, although this example can't be generalised to the entire industry, it's still pertinent given that the franchise is one of the largest in Japan's entertainment industry.

Another indication of the changing winds, apart from the decreasing presence of lolicon ()and shotacon, to a lesser extent) content in mainstream anime and manga, would also be the difficulty mangakas have in publishing lolicon-oriented content nowadays, as discussed in this article: https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... nt/.161868

Foreboding all this is the worry among some fans of the eventual demise of COMIC LO, one of the few adult magazines in Japan that publish lolicon content still in circulation that for years has been target of censorship and pressure, now switching to a bi-monthly format, whereas it previously had a monthly publication: https://crazyforanimetrivia.com/magazin ... bimonthly/

It certainly doesn't help how, throughout all this drama, most western lolicon enjoyers have responded to antis shaming them by trying to distance themselves from MAPs by engaging in respectability politics with some of the most fallacious arguments known to man. The lack of conclusive empirical evidence establishing a positive link between cartoon PIM and child molestation is their strongest argument, and they should've sticked to that if defending MAPs was too much for them. Alas, now such lolicons (known as "ironic lolicons") have contributed to the stigma in their own ways, and those of us in the anime community are dealing with the fallout.

PorcelainLark wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 12:47 pm I was reading Fragment's thread about recent events and I felt like this was an noticeable absence. Has anyone compiled what happened? I remember feeling bad about it at the time. Like I thought the growth in popularity of anime would make people come to terms with MAPs, but instead there was a massive backlash. Instead of becoming a place in the near mainstream where MAPs would be accepted, it became home to a different marginalized identity - transgender people.
I think what epitomized this was what happened with the anituber Digibro. Although I know I shouldn't think this, I always interpreted his transition as a reaction to the backlash against him for being one of the foremost defenders and enthusiasts for lolicon.
Also, there was all the controversy generated by Shädman's drawings (for example making a drawing based off of a famous Youtuber's real life daughter).

I remember the retreat and withdrawal of lolicons from the Western anime subculture as something that depressed me a lot at the time. Just as I was beginning to feel comfortable in my own skin, it felt like the rug was pulled out from under me.
I was thinking of writing about it, if there isn't already an overview.

I know a lot of people in the fandom argued that "Lolicon and Shotacon were sexualizing children" which I always thought was horseshit as its fictional character's not real people. Actually let me rephrase the stuff about lolicon and shotacon to some anything with a minor and nudity or some form of sexual suggestion is sexualizing children which again is horseshit IMHO.

As someone who is a strong supporter of freedom of expression and art I've gotten into debates with others about lolicon and as someone who likes it and uses it as masturbatory material I was never one to shy away from my enjoyment of it. While I don't watch as much anime as I used to I never really felt at home in the fandom because of my enjoyment of said material and always felt like "that guy" when debates occurred. Now I don''t even engage others in the anime fandom.

That is also why I ended up deleting my first reddit account because I defending someone doing drawings of AMSC and someone kept harassing me in other subreddits calling me an incel over it.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:06 pm to 16 with a 2-years age-gap exemption for 13-year-olds.

Actually not that bad. Japan has one of the most generous Romeo and Juliet gaps at 5 years. 13 and 18, 14 and 19, 15 and 20 are all still okay.

Funnily the age of criminal responsibility is 14 and there is no exemption for 12 or under. So a 14 year old sleeping with a 12 year old could be prosecuted. Unlikely, I think, prosecutors here still do seem to be loosely focused on “public interest” rather than their own self interest.

Fragment wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 1:01 pm That would definitely be interesting. It's not something that I know enough about. I think it's somewhat relevant to our history, too, though. Especially relevant is ATF and knowing when the grey zone was established.

I was thinking maybe some of the MAP communities growth might have been tied to lolicon being banned off of Reddit for example. I know that's part of how I ended up here: started going back to 4chan where I eventually heard about ATF, and from there I started getting involved in the other MAP communities.

Artaxerxes II wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:06 pm It certainly doesn't help how, throughout all this drama, most western lolicon enjoyers have responded to antis shaming them by trying to distance themselves from MAPs by engaging in respectability politics with some of the most fallacious arguments known to man. The lack of conclusive empirical evidence establishing a positive link between cartoon PIM and child molestation is their strongest argument, and they should've sticked to that if defending MAPs was too much for them. Alas, now such lolicons (known as "ironic lolicons") have contributed to the stigma in their own ways, and those of us in the anime community are dealing with the fallout.

I agree with aspects of this, but then like "pedophile" is used interchangeably with "child molester", you run into that semantic ambiguity that alienates a most people if you say "I think child pornography should be allowed to be posted". Lolicon/shotacon is child pornography which doesn't involve actual children. I've argued for that point before on ATF, though when I was doing research for this topic I came across the drama with Xanderhal and it made me reconsider. I get the feeling a lot of it has to do with the practical question of defending lolicon/shotacon being permitted on platforms, rather than the actual ethics. At the end of the day, a lot of this stuff is just about perception, so I can't blame them for thinking it's a losing strategy to accept that framing.

ZeroXJoker wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:59 pm I know a lot of people in the fandom argued that "Lolicon and Shotacon were sexualizing children" which I always thought was horseshit as its fictional character's not real people. Actually let me rephrase the stuff about lolicon and shotacon to some anything with a minor and nudity or some form of sexual suggestion is sexualizing children which again is horseshit IMHO.

I think the issue is if you admit lolicon/shotacon sexualizes children, people feel like they've won and they've justified banning it. I think if people were honest, it does "sexualize" children, just as regular hentai "sexualizes" women. If it was an realistic option, it would be so much easier to just say "media sexualizing children should be permitted".

Anyway, revisiting this drama has made me feel quite depressed, so I might leave it for now.