MAP Forum

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:53 am**

I was looking at some of the studies linked on Newgon here:
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Research:_ ... Distortion

One that caught my eye was Gannon, T.A. and Polaschek, D.L.L. (2005). "Do child molesters deliberately fake good on cognitive distortion questionnaires? An information processing-based investigation."

I was curious as to the types of things that are classified as cognitive distortions and how I'd score. There is no "undecided", no "somewhat agree" or "strongly agree". The questions are simply "agree" or "disagree". I'm curious as to everyone's score. Would your cognition be considered "distorted" by therapists.
The 10 items are:

Some children are mature enough to enjoy sex with adults.
An 8-year-old can enjoy a good sex joke with adults.
Fondling a child without full penetration can still cause harm.#
Some men are not true molesters, they are just out of control.
Child molesters often get longer sentences than they should.
A person should have sex whenever they feel it is needed.
Men denied sex suffer more than women forced to have sex.
When it comes down to it, many women are deceitful.
Often, a woman appears to care but just wants to use you.
Having sex with a lonely child can make the child feel loved.

#I assume this question is reversed polarity. Disagree should count as a point. Otherwise every "agree" answer is one point. What's your score?

I got 4. The control group of college students got about 2.2 (which was actually higher than the child molesters surveyed). One thing that I didn't like was the word "child" in the questions. My answers change significantly if teens are included as a potential target of the question, but I did assume they meant to ask about "minors". The last question was also challenging because there is no analysis of whether it's a good thing or not.

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:11 pm**

Some children are mature enough to enjoy sex with adults.
Agree. If you're defining a 'child' as anyone under 18, and an adult as anyone over 18, disagreeing would be a denial of biological reality.
An 8-year-old can enjoy a good sex joke with adults.
Agree. I often have to tell kids that young to stop making sex jokes.
Fondling a child without full penetration can still cause harm.
Agree. It can cause harm. So can fondling between adults. It depends on the circumstances.
Some men are not true molesters, they are just out of control.
Agree? Evidence supports it. But that doesn't mean non-consensual AMSC is OK.
Child molesters often get longer sentences than they should.
Agree, especially in the case of non-violent AMSC.
A person should have sex whenever they feel it is needed.
Disagree. Better not to do it in an office full of your co-workers.
Men denied sex suffer more than women forced to have sex.
Disagree.
When it comes down to it, many women are deceitful.
Agree, but so are humans in general.
Often, a woman appears to care but just wants to use you.
Agree, but again this applies to humans in general.
Having sex with a lonely child can make the child feel loved.
Agree, but there are also non-sexual ways to show love.

I'm well aware that my results will show 'cognitive distortion'.

Unfortunately, the only logical answers to 4, 8, 9, 10 (in their agree / disagree form) are the ones I provided, but it is wrong to suggest that they indicate approval of AMSC or show misogynistic tendencies. My answer to 4 doesn't mean I support 'out-of-control' sexual actions, my answers to 8 and 9 don't mean that I think women are any worse than men, and my answer to number 10 doesn't mean that I think someone should have sex with a child to make them feel less lonely.

Having a complex answer requires selections that show 'cognitive distortion'.

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:35 pm**

1. Some children are mature enough to enjoy sex with adults.

Agree.

2. An 8-year-old can enjoy a good sex joke with adults.

Agree.

3. Fondling a child without full penetration can still cause harm.#

Agree.

4. Some men are not true molesters, they are just out of control.

Disagree. Molestation is an act. I don't think molestation is always that big of a deal though (I lightly groped a few times when I was younger); and not every molester is dangerous sexual predator like Harvey Weinstein.

5. Child molesters often get longer sentences than they should.

Agree.

6. A person should have sex whenever they feel it is needed.

Agree, the overwhelming majority of the time.

7. Men denied sex suffer more than women forced to have sex.

More often than people are comfortable admitting, this is true. (In fact, I'm not sure people are comfortable saying this can ever be the case)

8. When it comes down to it, many women are deceitful.

Agree.

9. Often, a woman appears to care but just wants to use you.

Agree.

10. Having sex with a lonely child can make the child feel loved.

Disagree.

7/10.

I guess I'm the cognitively distortedest.
I don't get what 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 have to do with child molesters though.
Also, how do they define "cognitive distortion"? Like, say that a study found women were more likely to be deceitful, wouldn't that mean a person that said women were less likely to be deceitful have cognitive distortion? It feels like using the jargon of science to conceal normative judgements.

Posted: **Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:45 am**

In Howitt & Sheldon, another study on the topic, when cognitive distortions are grouped they use 4 common categories of distortions.
1) Children are sexual objects (I fucking hate the name of this one, it should be called "children as sexual subjects", at least)
2) Uncontrollability (the idea that an overwhelming sex drive forced molestation)
3) Entitlement (the idea that men deserve sex)
4) Nature of harm (looking isn't as harmful as touching)
5) Dangerous world (professionals are out to get you, but children can be trusted)

Looking through the Howitt & Sheldon list I find it funny what is considered a distortion, though. And how most of the offenders taking the test had fairly healthy, albeit pro-c points of view.

Take this item: "Involving children in sexual activities with, or for adults, can be an acceptable way of controlling and punishing the child."
Guess how many agreed with this? Zero of the 51 offenders.
"Children are supposed to do what adults want and this might include serving their sexual needs." One person agreed.
Meanwhile: "Children are more reliable and more trusting than adults." 47 agreed.

One of my biggest problems is that so many of the items use the words "some children" or "sometimes". In which case I agree. It doesn't mean I think it's common or that there may not be complex reasons for it. But check out the next four.

Sometimes children don’t say no to sexual activity with adults because they are curious about sex or enjoy it.
Some children are mature enough to enjoy sexual activities with, and for, adults.
Some children are willing and eager to be involved in sexual activities that are with, and for, adults.
Sometimes the child instigates the sexual activity with the adult.

I have to agree with all of these as phrased because I recognize that there is diversity in minors (child is not defined so I have to assume this includes teens, which makes these even more comical as "distortions"...). Now if the questions said "many" or "most" I might instead respond "disagree". The simple fact is that disagreeing with many of these statements seems to be the position that is out of touch with reality and therefore the copium cognitive distortion.

That is the level research is at, though. Funnily, the OP research's results basically conclude that "offenders don't have more cognitive distortions than normal and probably aren't lying about it". Good conclusion for us, but the whole premise seems rather flawed.

Posted: **Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:47 am**

WandersGlade wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:35 pm Also, how do they define "cognitive distortion"? Like, say that a study found women were more likely to be deceitful, wouldn't that mean a person that said women were less likely to be deceitful have cognitive distortion? It feels like using the jargon of science to conceal normative judgements.

Agner Fog wrote about this in 1992, saying "The rationale behind cognitive therapy is that the world view of the therapist is believed to be right and when the world view of the patient is different he is said to suffer from cognitive distortion".

Posted: **Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:21 am**

1. Some children are mature enough to enjoy sex with adults.
- Agree
2. An 8-year-old can enjoy a good sex joke with adults.
- Agree
3. Fondling a child without full penetration can still cause harm.
- Agree
4. Some men are not true molesters, they are just out of control.
- Agree? Unsure what "true molester" is supposed to mean.
5. Child molesters often get longer sentences than they should.
- Agree
6. A person should have sex whenever they feel it is needed.
- Disagree
7. Men denied sex suffer more than women forced to have sex.
- Disagree
8. When it comes down to it, many women are deceitful.
- Agree, as are many men
9. Often, a woman appears to care but just wants to use you.
- Agree, as do some men
10. Having sex with a lonely child can make the child feel loved.
- Agree

I guess I got a wrongthink score of 7? Extremely silly that this is used in professional contexts given the lack of nuance possible to give in a binary answer scheme.

Posted: **Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:52 pm**

Fragment wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:45 am In Howitt & Sheldon, another study on the topic, when cognitive distortions are grouped they use 4 common categories of distortions.
1) Children are sexual objects (I fucking hate the name of this one, it should be called "children as sexual subjects", at least)
2) Uncontrollability (the idea that an overwhelming sex drive forced molestation)
3) Entitlement (the idea that men deserve sex)
4) Nature of harm (looking isn't as harmful as touching)
5) Dangerous world (professionals are out to get you, but children can be trusted)

The concept of "objectification" itself has problems. The original treatment of concept in Merleau-Ponty's Phenomenology of Perception has sex as being a part of perception rather than judgement. To "objectify" doesn't mean to "misjudge as sexual" as feminists imply it to mean. I think the mistake is to overestimate the role of social determinism in sexual desire.
I also think the concept of "entitlement" is questionable. Doesn't it imply that women have lower sex drives than men? It leads to a dilemma most people today won't like: either women have lower sex drives (i.e. there is some innate biological difference) or women are refusing sex when they actually want it (a feminist defense of rape culture?!). In any case, I think the answer should probably be engineering society so that sex is more easily available, for example by legalizing prostitution.
This ties to my Wilhelm Reich inspired tendency to see the repression of sex as the root of aggression and social conflict. Anecdotally, once, I couldn't masturbate for a week because of being in a communal space and I became much more short-tempered as a result.

Looking through the Howitt & Sheldon list I find it funny what is considered a distortion, though. And how most of the offenders taking the test had fairly healthy, albeit pro-c points of view.

Take this item: "Involving children in sexual activities with, or for adults, can be an acceptable way of controlling and punishing the child."
Guess how many agreed with this? Zero of the 51 offenders.
"Children are supposed to do what adults want and this might include serving their sexual needs." One person agreed.
Meanwhile: "Children are more reliable and more trusting than adults." 47 agreed.

Says it all, really. They're looking for MAPs to all be the Moors Murderers, but it just isn't representative of who we are. I think if there's any cognitive distortion going on, it's that unexamined jump from MAP to sadist/serial killer. It's an irrational fear. Maybe we should start using cognitive behavioral therapy on people on social media in order to challenge the widespread paranoia people have about MAPs?

Fragment wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:47 am
WandersGlade wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:35 pm Also, how do they define "cognitive distortion"? Like, say that a study found women were more likely to be deceitful, wouldn't that mean a person that said women were less likely to be deceitful have cognitive distortion? It feels like using the jargon of science to conceal normative judgements.
Agner Fog wrote about this in 1992, saying "The rationale behind cognitive therapy is that the world view of the therapist is believed to be right and when the world view of the patient is different he is said to suffer from cognitive distortion".

Making use of morality, without letting that morality be subject to scrutiny.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2024 12:56 pm**

Some children are mature enough to enjoy sex with adults. Agree
An 8-year-old can enjoy a good sex joke with adults. Agree
Fondling a child without full penetration can still cause harm. Agree
Some men are not true molesters, they are just out of control. Disagree
Child molesters often get longer sentences than they should. Agree
A person should have sex whenever they feel it is needed. Disagree
Men denied sex suffer more than women forced to have sex. Disagree
When it comes down to it, many women are deceitful. Agree
Often, a woman appears to care but just wants to use you. Disagree
Having sex with a lonely child can make the child feel loved. Agree

Posted: **Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:17 pm**

WandersGlade wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:52 pm
Fragment wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:45 am In Howitt & Sheldon, another study on the topic, when cognitive distortions are grouped they use 4 common categories of distortions.
1) Children are sexual objects (I fucking hate the name of this one, it should be called "children as sexual subjects", at least)
2) Uncontrollability (the idea that an overwhelming sex drive forced molestation)
3) Entitlement (the idea that men deserve sex)
4) Nature of harm (looking isn't as harmful as touching)
5) Dangerous world (professionals are out to get you, but children can be trusted)
The concept of "objectification" itself has problems.

Object is simply the term psychologists use to refer to people.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:19 am**

Yeah, this is a thing I often find frustrating about these kinds of surveys. Particularly when you are forced into a binary agree-disagree, there's no context.

For example, what is the definition of children that we are using here? For question 8, what if you think most people (men and women) are deceitful? For question 4, I'm not even sure exactly what that is asking.

There's just no nuance in being forced into an agree/disagree choice on these vague statements.

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