How to progress

[Eden]

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse with this thought process, but I'm not sure how effective we'll be in changing the culture to be more receptive towards AMSC if we first don't destigmatize attitudes towards youth sexuality in general. I'd wager that most people aren't comfortable with 12 and 13 year olds having sexual relationships with each other, let alone with an older partner. Probably the most egregious example of this stigma is when young people send each other nudes, in which (in the US at least) both parties could be charged with possession/distribution of cp. I feel like this area in particular, is one where we could make significant change by pushing for the youth to be exempt from these laws; much in the same vein as Romeo and Juliet laws that are already in effect in many states. I'd like to think, perhaps naively, that society could at least get onboard with this initiative.

Pushing for these exemptions to be codified in law would also carry the added benefit of showing that our movement isn't nearly as self serving as most people choose to believe.

[Jim Burton]

Could be a foot in the door, but would need a large number of young people to push for it - preferably those who are directly effected by the laws.

Else, it won't work to have us getting behind it, nor would it be possible for our community to get behind or be seen to get exclusively behind youth rights initiatives.

Best we can hope for is for conservatives to run a psy-op on themselves by shrieking about how the youth rights movement has a connection to MAPs.

[BLueRibbon]

There are plenty of people who think it's OK for young adolescents to explore their sexuality with other young adolescents, but the 'gross' factor comes into play as soon as adults are involved, and then all kinds of nonsense reasons are given for why it's harmful, because "it's disgusting" is no longer an acceptable answer after gay liberation.

My most recent YF was allowed to sleep over at his girlfriend's house unsupervised at 13. His parents knew.

[WandersGlade]

This is why I have a position I call "sex-positive paternalism", basically the issue in my view isn't so much that we underestimate children's ability to make to decisions, it's that contemporary culture is very neurotic about sex. I think if adults had less guilt and shame about sex, and we were all more honest with children about sex, we could avoid this cycle of reinforcing irrational horror about sex.

[Fragment]

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse with this thought process, but I'm not sure how effective we'll be in changing the culture to be more receptive towards AMSC if we first don't destigmatize attitudes towards youth sexuality in general. I'd wager that most people aren't comfortable with 12 and 13 year olds having sexual relationships with each other, let alone with an older partner. Probably the most egregious example of this stigma is when young people send each other nudes, in which (in the US at least) both parties could be charged with possession/distribution of cp. I feel like this area in particular, is one where we could make significant change by pushing for the youth to be exempt from these laws; much in the same vein as Romeo and Juliet laws that are already in effect in many states. I'd like to think, perhaps naively, that society could at least get onboard with this initiative.

Pushing for these exemptions to be codified in law would also carry the added benefit of showing that our movement isn't nearly as self serving as most people choose to believe.

Taking the US context- there are currently 3 states where 12-year-olds can consent to sex with older teens- Alabama, Delaware and Rhode Island. 10 states allow it for 13-year-olds. That's a quarter of states with Romeo and Juliet laws.

I definitely agree that recognition of youth sexuality is a big first step. In terms of heterosexual contact the looming problem of "youth pregnancy" is something to be tackled with. But if youths are seen as sexual, then it's a smaller hurdle to adult-minor contact. Self-generated PIM definitely seems to be a huge issue and something we should definitely push a progressive take on. Even if it never leads to progress for MAPs, minors shouldn't be punished for sharing their bodies. Because we do actually give a fuck about minors and don't want their lives ruined.

[BLueRibbon]

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse with this thought process, but I'm not sure how effective we'll be in changing the culture to be more receptive towards AMSC if we first don't destigmatize attitudes towards youth sexuality in general. I'd wager that most people aren't comfortable with 12 and 13 year olds having sexual relationships with each other, let alone with an older partner. Probably the most egregious example of this stigma is when young people send each other nudes, in which (in the US at least) both parties could be charged with possession/distribution of cp. I feel like this area in particular, is one where we could make significant change by pushing for the youth to be exempt from these laws; much in the same vein as Romeo and Juliet laws that are already in effect in many states. I'd like to think, perhaps naively, that society could at least get onboard with this initiative.

Pushing for these exemptions to be codified in law would also carry the added benefit of showing that our movement isn't nearly as self serving as most people choose to believe.

Taking the US context- there are currently 3 states where 12-year-olds can consent to sex with older teens- Alabama, Delaware and Rhode Island. 10 states allow it for 13-year-olds. That's a quarter of states with Romeo and Juliet laws.

I definitely agree that recognition of youth sexuality is a big first step. In terms of heterosexual contact the looming problem of "youth pregnancy" is something to be tackled with. But if youths are seen as sexual, then it's a smaller hurdle to adult-minor contact. Self-generated PIM definitely seems to be a huge issue and something we should definitely push a progressive take on. Even if it never leads to progress for MAPs, minors shouldn't be punished for sharing their bodies. Because we do actually give a fuck about minors and don't want their lives ruined.

Adults could actually be a safer bet than another teen if we're talking about things like youth pregnancy, because adults are usually more aware of the importance of contraception and safe sex in general.

[Peter Caldwell]

Even if the whole thing about teens being hormonal, reckless, and incapable of thinking about the future were true, it's not an argument against adult/teen relationships like they think it is. If true, the absolute last thing we would want is for teens to multiply their stupidity by dating each other.

I wonder how parents would answer questions about this.

"Would you rather your high school daughter sneak off and get absolutely blackout drunk with her HS boyfriend at a party while thinking she's at a sleepover at her GF's house or be out on a date with her responsible adult boyfriend who's gonna have her back home at 11:00?"

"If your 13 YO daughter was out with her her boyfriend when they walk by a mugger waiting for an easy target to walk by, would he more likely do nothing and wait for an easier target if the boyfriend accompanying her was also a 13-year-old or a grown man?"

"Would you rather your daughter have a consensual relationship with a man or trip and fall into a pit full of 503 rattlesnakes?"

[BLueRibbon]

Good point, Peter.

This should be added to the final argument.

[OnionPetal]

Even if the whole thing about teens being hormonal, reckless, and incapable of thinking about the future were true, it's not an argument against adult/teen relationships like they think it is. If true, the absolute last thing we would want is for teens to multiply their stupidity by dating each other.

Even for all its sex-positivity, society still seems to have a hatred of adult male sexuality... to the extent that a sexually experienced man is usually considered more 'dangerous' than a younger, inexperienced boy. They fear the sexually experienced man, because he knows better how to 'play' the dating game, and how to 'win over' the heart of a girl. And they assume he will use this knowledge to manipulate his way into some inexperienced kid's pants. That's what we're up against.

In reality, as Peter suggests, the experienced -- when of pure heart -- can be better equipped to guide, to lead, to educate, etc. But how do we convince a society who hates and fears mature male sexuality, that indeed there are good-hearted men who make a better choice? That is a tough one.