A sensitive question/issue...

[TayFerret]

...

[OnionPetal]

[...] what I've observed on forums like B4UACT [...]

Ok, that gives some insight into where some of these sentiments could be coming from.

I never said all, or even most nepis are like that. But for the people who claim "porn addiction", they at least claim a slippery slope or ever more "extreme" material.

Right, #NotAll... But in a thread started about prejudices and treatment towards nepis in the MAP community, one of your initial contributions was to connect nepis with objectification, fetishism, and too much porn. And that's the same sort of thing you might hear an anti say about hebes.

I am not trying to attack you, but your sentiments about nepis were way out of line with the breadth of material I was familiar with, and that we have available in our research and communities. Yes, I was surprised to see these sentiments expressed in a thread about divisive biases by a leader of a group that is meant to unite MAPs. Initially I thought you were just acknowledging that you had some biases to work through, and I sincerely wanted to be helpful in my response. But if you actually believe that nepis exist largely because of 'too much porn,' then I don't think we're going to get very far in this particular thread.

(And I apologize in advance if that's not what you meant by introducing those tidbits into this discussion. I understand you said 'not all.' But since you have justified that point a couple times here, it seems important to your conception of nepis. And I honestly don't know how hard it is going to be to get beyond that in this particular thread. I also don't want to make you defensive or feel like you have to 'debate' about it. I am feeling very protective right now, because in a 'sensitive' thread that was started to discuss unfair treatment and biases towards nepis, I saw the perpetuation of those same biases that nepis frequently lament about.)

I hope my ideas don't make nepis feel unwelcome, that's not my intent. But even if they do, I'm the kind of person that thinks "I don't care if you have issues with me in private, as long as don't do anything about it".

I'm not quite sure what your quote was supposed to mean? Are you concerned that nepis who feel unwelcome here might try to harm you?? My friend, they're not gonna hurt you. Nepis are not that 'scary,' lol. They only feel unwelcome because the romantic and emotional parts of their attraction are largely ignored, and they're constantly mischaracterized/misunderstood. They're tacitly told, 'there's nothing for you here.' So they simply stay in spaces where they feel more welcome.

Can I flip and ask you a question instead then? What kind of legal reforms do you think would be appropriate and beneficial for nepis that might be possible to achieve in the medium-term? With my mind being mostly focused on legal reform, I'm not quite sure how I can help.

There are a lot of reasonable near-term social and legal reforms that would benefit all minors and all MAPs, regardless of contact stance. I would be happy to discuss these at another point. But this thread was started to discuss prejudices and divisive attitudes towards nepis in the greater MAP community. There are clearly still a lot of misunderstandings and biases around the nepi orientation. And I think, before we can advocate for each other, we need to better understand each other. Understanding each other should be a crucial component for a group that -- by its namesake -- is meant to unite MAPs.

Clearly I am very passionate about this issue. @Fragment, I am not trying to rail against you personally. I have just seen these same biases time and again, and the hurt that they cause. Can I tell you why this feels so close to me? Not only do I have many good nepi friends, but I often feel that I can relate to their attraction better than I can relate to hebes. When listening to nepis describe their ideal 'playdates,' I am often struck by how pure, innocent, and wholesome their love is. It is not at all like hebes and ephebs, who generally want to have adult-style sex, and often treat their partners like (young) adults. Yes, there's a sexual attraction for nepis, but the romantic and emotional component to their attraction is powerful. And if you listen to some of their stories... like falling in love with a preschool student while helping her tie her shoes... then you will see how completely in-tune they are empathetically with children, and why those relationships with young children mean so much to the them. A lot of them realized they were nepis whilst still in primary school themselves, and their love for young children runs so deep. So it is such a slap in the face when nepis are stereotyped by other MAPs as purely sex-based deviants who view children as mere 'objects.'

Another stereotype -- probably mostly from Hollywood -- is that nepis are just 'simple-minded' and not mentally 'mature' enough to go for adults. But this is also false. Nepis can be some of the brightest people, speaking multiple languages or having advanced professional skills. I cannot explain exactly why relationships with young children are so fulfilling to them, but I believe that their love is genuine and pure, because I can relate to almost everything they say when they talk about falling in love.

So @Fragment, when I suggested that you sit down with a group of nepis and play a game of cards, I was truly not being snarky. I think that making friends and listening to others can help us understand and see the humanity in those who perhaps we thought to be different. And I know that nobody can gain these new understandings overnight. Acknowledging biases and committing to growth can take time. But I really hope to see some effort taken to try to acknowledge biases, to better understand those who we view as 'different,' and to foster a more inclusive space at Mu where all MAPs feel more welcome.

[Hockey Stick]

I'll be honest, I do struggle with nepiophiles as an exclusive hebephile. Not that I think they should be judged, hated or condemned. But I struggle to wrap my head around what kind of sexual reciprocity could exist in such a relationship. Are they just objectifying the small kids in their fantasies? Using them as a tool to get off? Are they imagining a greater level of capacity than a child of such an age could actually possess?

I think part of my struggle is that I support legal reform and giving MAPs as a way to live authentically (which includes a right to sexual expression). But I don't know if I could extend that to very young toddlers. I understand pro-c arguments about sexual play with even babies, but I don't think I can get there, myself, especially having had a kid.

So, I end up talking about a situation where all MAPs should be loved, accepted and respected, but the legal and social rights that I hope can be extended to hebephiles might never be extended to nepiophiles.

The question I ask myself is how to properly show love for nepios (or pedosadists) despite that. I guess even for anti-c people the question is "how can we respect hebephiles even if they lack freedoms that GLB people have?"

We have a two-tier class system wherever we draw the line, unless we abolish it altogether. That doesn't sit right with me, but I'm not sure what the solution is.

Regardless of laws, "c", or reciprocity... Nepiophiles are viewed as either Insane or Evil in a way like no others simply for having a particularly high opinion of the particularly young.

That's my core point. We're judged primarily by our mere tastes.

I personally drool over toddler girls because I view them as the greatest beauty and essentially the greatest works of art, i.e. something to preserve at all costs and not destroy.

Let's be honest... Male teleiophilia in its most primal form wants to destroy the woman, in more ways than one. Break her cherry, make her bleed, plunder her throat, then disgrace her face! Everyone knows this, so few can truly comprehend sexual attraction without one shred of that element of savagery.

So I'd wager that nepiophiles are on average the world's most pure in their sexual intentions and desires. Those particularly inclined towards being nurturing towards the most innocent.

We're society's/the average person's scapegoat by which they project and confess their own sexual savagery and guilt.

But even the notion of "innocence" doesn't quite capture the beauty of very small children. They're the humans who are most like animals and psychically intuitive. The ones who've strayed least from God/Nature/The Universe and are most in touch with their raw instincts and intuition. It could even be said that only they can truly "reciprocate" because they're the only humans who aren't primarily driven by pride/ego/ulterior motives/fear/trauma/external social input.

[Hockey Stick]

I think I'm going to bow out.

You're right, OnionPetal, that I haven't been able to express myself in a way that comes across as compassionate enough.

I'll just explain the part where you said;

'm not quite sure what your quote was supposed to mean?

What I meant to say is that from broader society I personally would be content with "you're a sick freak, but I'm not going to bother you". If I was a nepi and other MAPs were saying, "you're a sick freak, but I'm not going to bother you" I think I would be content.

I am NOT saying nepis are sick freaks, by the way. My only point is that I have never experienced helping a little kid tie their shoe as a sexual experience. I can totally understand the love side of that, but I don't have a point of reference for the sexual side.

I also have an adult-attracted, straight friend that is a biastophile. He's only turned on by the idea of objectifying and raping someone. As a result he's stayed a virgin. I don't judge him whatsoever for his feelings. But I have no point of reference for his sexual desires. It's totally foreign to me.

I'm not using that example to imply that nepis are turned on by rape or anything of the sort. Simply that there are certain kinds of sexual desire that I haven't experienced and can't relate to. All I can offer is a cold, logical "no-one should punish you for your feelings".

Are they just objectifying the small kids in their fantasies? Using them as a tool to get off? Are they imagining a greater level of capacity than a child of such an age could actually possess?

This was me spitballing based on the people that have expressed interest in toddlers that I've run into. I wasn't meaning to imply that any of these are true. I just can't answer the question of "what is the sexual appeal?"

So I'll stop trying and this will be my last post here.

It's completely normal to want to either rape (Dom) or be raped (Sub)

Fetishes simply have zero to do with who your heart and eyes drool over and find most beautiful... Everyone knows this...

@Fragment I'm sensitive on the topic for obvious reasons but thank you for also being sensitive.

[OnionPetal]

[...] I have never experienced helping a little kid tie their shoe as a sexual experience. I can totally understand the love side of that, but I don't have a point of reference for the sexual side. [...]

It's fairly straightforward. The shoe example is not an erotic experience. It's a bonding experience, related to romantic/emotional attraction. And like many romantic/emotional relationships, those 'intimate' feelings can turn sexual. Yes, there has to be physical attraction, too. But for most nepis, it's not just about physical appearance. It's about the intense mix of emotions involved in a nurturing relationship with a special young friend.

[...] I just can't answer the question of "what is the sexual appeal?"

Right, you can't answer it. That answer has to come from nepis.

[...] So I'll stop trying and this will be my last post here.

It's Ok. Just please don't stop trying to understand. Nepi love is not that far off from other types of love.