Why do you tell yourself that kids can consent?

[Outis]

A reshash of above but here's my few comments.

1. I was sexually active as a child with an adult and I wasn't traumatized, that's just a fact. I struggled with school with some bullying and I wasn't the smartest kid in school. I had an adult friend who encouraged me in school, listened to me, talked to me respectfully and yes we went on to have a sexual relationship which I enjoyed. It was partly a distraction from everything else in life and it was one person in my life other than my family who cared about me. By modern definitions he groomed me for sex and was a monster and I was a victim even though I know with total certainty that this isn't the case. If grooming is listening to, supporting, caring then it isn't a bad thing and I got as much out of our sexual times as he did. In fact I've talked before how he panicked one day when I snuck out of our family home day, crossed town and went to his house because I was missing him, if anything I was stalking him and it was him who eventually told me we had to cool things off and gradually distance each other.

2. I'm a parent now and my kids have always been smart enough to think independently. No they don't know as much about the world as me, I know less than other people and more than others. My kids have no problem telling me if they don't want a bath tonight, don't want vegetables with their meal, don't want to go visit their grandparents because "their house smells funny", don't want to do their homework. My kids from toddlers through to adulthood have always had opinions, have always asked questions, have always spoken what they are thinking about.

Consent is being able to give permission for something and yes, you need to know what you're giving permission for. I can tickle a child without explaining in advance the process I'm about to follow and how it'll result in electrical signals going to the brain. A child doesn't need to understand biology or agriculture to eat vegetables. My wife and I have different approaches to parenting to a degree.

My wife is authoritarian and gives demands. "Eat your vegetables", "Have a bath now", "Do your homework now", "You have 10 minutes to be ready to get in the car and come to your grandparents", "I will come to your room in 15 minutes to inspect that it's tidy". No consent sought, it's demands. Her argument for this is that kids can't consent and so there's no need to reason with them or talk to them on that level, simple instruction is sufficient since they are children.

My approach is to explain to them and usually they will choose sensibly by themselves. I'll explain why they need to eat healthily, how it'll improve their skin and health. When a little older and they started to get spots this became a super easy conversation because they wanted to be slimmer and not have spots and as I talked them through food options they were rejecting the junk for the healthy foods. They chose even as kids and consented to eating veg.

Explain about why they need a tidy room, the benefit of getting homework done early, why they need to bath, the benefit of having a trip out to see their grandparents. Do they agree to everything? No, of course not, they have their own views and opinions but more often than not they choose sensibly and that usually entails giving consent for something.

My wife now asks me to talk to the kids about things she wants all the time because her top down demand approach rarely works. They don't respect her, they dig in, they don't feel listened to and consent is meaningless to them when given to her. My wife has said many times she can't understand why I can ask them to do the same thing and they'll do it. It's just respect and seeking consent and listening.

So when you say they can't give consent then you are talking from my wifes worldview that a kid is a kid and can't give consent but my experience is different. The reason when I was a kid I loved that adult was because he was my friend, he cared, he listened, he respected when I gave consent and when I said no. I never felt threatened around him, I felt safe and cared for and listened to. Sex was just something fun we did together, it wasn't complicated, it was like tickling or playing a game, it was fun. All these years later I only feel gratitude towards him.

[Bookshelf]

it's just common decency and respect for oneself and others, the families involved. family unity. world peace.
sucking off your friend is wrong. relationships shouldn't work like that, it destroys society, children mostly. so stop doing it.

Civilized society is far older than these silly rules. As a species we'd have gone extinct long ago if all it took to destroy us were mutual blowjobs.

Don't you think it odd that society was fine and growing long before these rules— the 'family unit', your personal conceptions of 'respect and decency', how relationships 'should work'— were ever conceived?

[Judgey]

okay bookshelf, you might be right about that
i dunno

ancient times was ancient times, and maybe things were better in some ways back then, what do i know? very little.

all i know is i'm glad i never crossed those lines, sometimes i think i regret missing those opportunities, usually when i'm feeling selfish and angry and unfulfilled in life.

my stance is sex is sacred and i'm sticking to it!

[Bookshelf]

ancient times was ancient times, and maybe things were better in some ways back then, what do i know? very little.

You don't have to go to ancient times though. The nuclear family unit only became the most common form of family in the last century with the economic arms race between capitalism and communism. The 'sex is sacred' perspective was unique to only a few places, and exported globally mainly by Britain during the expansion of its empire.

Modern western ideals on sex are, in contrast to the history of human civilization, a tiny spot on the timeline. Entire civilizations were born without ever being exposed to the idea of marriage, nevermind looking at sex as some sacred activity— there's absolutely no indication that less puritan ideals are going to lead to any societal collapse, give these ideals are just one of a massively diverse range of sexual cultures globally and historically.

Edit: And just to be clear, you didn't put forward an opinion. You said world peace was at stake and that society would be destroyed if it were normal for two friends to blow eachother.

[Judgey]

I don't need you or any books or bible to tell me sex is sacred.
I just know it to be true.

Nobody tells me what to do.
I just know right from wrong, from my own perspective.
The muddle of human sexuality today is atrocious, when lust turns into abuse, it's worse than drug abuse, and when children are involved, nothing is worse than that. That's my lifelong held philosophy and it won't change, just my opinion. I hope others feel the same way I do, but they probably don't, they probably agree with you.
Let's all just have a huge orgy with each other and the family, everyday!
If it feels good do it! right?
yeah that's what the man who did stuff to me said. didn't appreciate it much.

don't argue with me bookshelf, you'll never win, just let it go.
i'm not as educated as you are, don't make fun of the handicapped, it's unbecoming.

[Bookshelf]

I just know right from wrong, from my own perspective.

There's "this is my own perspective", and then there's "society will literally end if you don't do as I say". You did the latter. When you come out with absurd comments like that, expect some response.

when lust turns into abuse

Abuse is a separate entity from sex, and isn't confined to any particular time period, culture, ideological perspective, religion; and certainly not excluded from sex-permissible institutions like marriage. I fail to see what this has to do with you proposing that two friends sucking eachother off will end the world though. Neither do I see what the possibility of abuse has to do with sex being sacred.

It isn't right to hide behind "it's just my opinion" when you get on and try to tell others what to do, or try to influence other people's ideology and activism by putting forward objectively false facts— like for example, telling people that society will collapse if two friends legally give one another oral. You didn't just give an opinion; you told someone how their personal relationships are supposed to work, and demanded they change it.

[Judgey]

The evidence of the world falling to pieces, and gender, and human sexuality lgbtq+ is obvious

society is ending, all over the world not just my house
sooner or later

you're an optimist, probably wealthy and surrounded with luxuries and distractions so you don't notice what's going on, i get that.

[Bookshelf]

The evidence of the world falling to pieces, and gender, and human sexuality lgbtq+ is obvious

Let's assume for a moment this is true and the world is falling to pieces at an unprecedented rate, as such never speculated before in history— why would you attribute that to less restrictive sexuality, and not the growth of conservatism and puritanism across influential western societies? Youth sexuality specifically is targeted on a daily basis; there are new laws being drafted every other week trying to minimize exposure that young people have to "mature" media; MAPs are being criminalized for viewing fictional material in more places than ever before; extremist gender conformists have been attacking even straight cisgendered females because they appeared too masculine in a women's bathroom, and so on.

If society is collapsing, why do you assume it's because somewhere two friends can legally blow one another, and not anything I've mentioned? And just to be clear as well, there are few places in the world where it would be considered normal at this point for two regular friends to have any sexual contact— that's fantasy on your part. Sexuality is not open like that outside of a few tiny subcultures. If the state of sexuality is the cause of this alleged collapse, understand that we aren't even close to being as progressive as certain civilizations in the past that thrived; whatever is causing your proposed collapse can't possibly be that.

[Judgey]

I appreciate your questions, providing opportunity for me to speak, this is important to me.
It will take me a day or so to put together a coherent reply.
Thanks Bookshelf, maybe someone else chime in.

[PorcelainLark]

Let's assume for a moment this is true and the world is falling to pieces at an unprecedented rate, as such never speculated before in history— why would you attribute that to less restrictive sexuality, and not the growth of conservatism and puritanism across influential western societies? Youth sexuality specifically is targeted on a daily basis; there are new laws being drafted every other week trying to minimize exposure that young people have to "mature" media; MAPs are being criminalized for viewing fictional material in more places than ever before; extremist gender conformists have been attacking even straight cisgendered females because they appeared too masculine in a women's bathroom, and so on.

If society is collapsing, why do you assume it's because somewhere two friends can legally blow one another, and not anything I've mentioned? And just to be clear as well, there are few places in the world where it would be considered normal at this point for two regular friends to have any sexual contact— that's fantasy on your part. Sexuality is not open like that outside of a few tiny subcultures. If the state of sexuality is the cause of this alleged collapse, understand that we aren't even close to being as progressive as certain civilizations in the past that thrived; whatever is causing your proposed collapse can't possibly be that.

I think what's causing the problems in world isn't sexuality, it's extreme egoism. You think of multinational corporations that undermine the transition to renewable energy - it's people literally putting their short term self interests ahead of the very possibility of human existence. I'll never understand the level of greed people have. The whole "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude is going to destroy humanity, in my opinion. There's every incentive in the world to focus on yourself, and yet there's an epidemic of loneliness, and people are more depressed than ever. Society is collapsing, but it's not due to sex, it's due to that solipsistic attitude towards life.

Yes, sex can be selfish and can involve using people, but that's just it - the issue is being selfish and using people, not the fact that it's sex. By blaming sex, you can distract from the broader problem of using people.