Why do you tell yourself that kids can consent?

[thecurious]

Hello, I am here since some time now, reading only. I am not a Map nore am I an anti and I wouldn't call myself an Allie either.

I see yall talking about "kids can consent". I think that's wrong. How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet? If they don't even know what to expect, how is it consent? If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids. A child is innocent and puts its trust in adults, cause they know more stuff etc, they will let you do and trust you easily, so you know you do have an advantage on them. I think you are lying to yourself, building this world where it is okay, with fake arguments, cause you are terrified of telling yourself you're hurting children. It's even way worse when you say you like kids that can't even talk and don't have a big logic. Some kids you say you are attracted to, can't even talk, and that's just straight up direct using. Like an object.
Now, I feel sorry you are so scared for your life, and die in many countries and all those risks cause indeed you cannot chose what you are attracted to. But you can choose not to act on it, and not to give anyone else the idea that it is okay to do so. You have to understand that children don't need that, and if you do this it's mainly for your own pleasure. You have to understand that this hurts children way more than it gives them any "experience" they will get later anyway when they will be ready.
I think that yes, it's not normal that you're so scared to just talk about it, that you are so bullied and can't share a secret. Cause you should be able to say you have these thoughts, so you can get help and understand why you have those and how you can not have them anymore. And there ARE ways to help you without putting you in danger. You can see a psychologist, they would help you with these thoughts so you don't have to act on it, and maybe get more included in society and finally feel normal. You can get Help and get a better situation and a better life, and it will be better for anyone. Plus, you can do age play with other adults who look younger if you really need to.
But please, consider going to therapy, they are not your enemies, they won't put you in any danger, they are here to try and help you without any judging! think about it if you really love the youth

[HumanBeing]

I will try to summarize it as much as I can.

"How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet?"
In most cases, you don't need any prior knowledge to have sex; you just need to know how to say "yes, I want to do it" or "no, I don't want to do it."

"If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids"

There are also positive experiences but the mass media ignore such cases and they usually mix cases of real abuse with consensual sex, treating them as if they were the same thing.

Also in some consensual sex cases (especially in current times) the stress is caused due to the experience of being interrogated by the police, having everyone telling you that (regardless of what you felt) you were abused and other sources of Nocebogenic harm

you can read more about it here:

About positive relationships:
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Accounts_and_Testimonies

About Adult-Minor Sex being inherently harmful:
wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes

About Nocebogenic harm:
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Nocebogenic_harm

"A child is innocent and puts its trust in adults"

That's not true, even babies tend to cry if they are left in the arms of someone unknown to them, and older kids/teenagers don't trust an unknown person just because he is an adult

Maybe some toddlers do it sometimes but that doesn't mean they are idiots, they just have less experience on social issues because they aren't used to be around people besides their families.

[RoosterDance]

Firstly, let me thank you for making the effort to reach understanding, as opposed to just blind condemnation.

There are many counter-arguments I would like to make. HumanBeing covered some good ones.
But let me start here:

How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet?

Why do you feel they are incapable of learning what it is?

[Brain O'Conner]

How can kids consent to sex if they don't even know what it is yet?

What do you even mean they don't know what sex is? What you're saying is a bit vague. If what you mean by, they don't know what sex is meaning they don't have sexual feelings and desires, then that is false. The truth of the matter is, kids of nearly all ages have sexual feelings and desires, i.e. the goal-driven reward-like feeling with a sense of excitement, passion, and attachment mixed in, which is formally known as libido. In other words, kids have sexual, and emotional/romantic feelings/attractions especially when they get near their pre-teens where they become more aware of those feelings. So, that means that if a kid has sexual feelings and desires that he/she wants share to her/his adult friend/partner that she/he trusts, and the adult reciprocates that back, that is by definition mutual consent. Now, one may argue that they can't give informed consent due to their brains being underdeveloped, but this is due to a lack understanding on brain development and strawman arguments that undermine kids' ability to critical think and reason. In short, maturity, more specifically with brain maturation, other than the fetal stages of brain development, brain size, synaptic pruning, and other things, is not fixed. Brain maturation is very fluid and dynamic. To be able to understand this, one must understand the process of myelinization. Myelinization is a process the brain undergoes starting from birth when the synapses that carry information from one neuron to another get strengthen with a fatty structure called myelin sheath which is formed from the assistance of Schwann cells. Myelin sheath aids the synapses to transfer the information at a much faster rate. Now, the key thing to understand is that the way myelin is produced around the synapse is mainly by lighting up those specific areas of the brain and good diet. The more you fire up those synapses, the more myelinated they become and the more efficient and skilled you will be at any given task. Having this understanding in mind, this means that kids can be more skilled and knowledgeable at a specific thing and outperform adults in any given skill except for maybe physical strength skills and vice-versa. There are not only real-life examples of this, but there is research that hints towards this too. This paper (https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.neuron.2016.10.059), which is done by Leah H. Somerville, hints towards this notion. In short, she states that nobody in the field can agree on a definitive marker of maturity and that there are times where kids as young as eight have higher brain maturation in specific parts of the brain than adults and vice-versa. Why? Mainly because of the nature of myelinization being mostly dynamic and fluid. I can go deeper, but that would be too much and I'm writing a paper on this whole thing anyway.

If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids.

You are absolutely correct that abuse has traumatized and hurt a lot of kids. That is undeniable. But the truth of the matter is, that is only abuse that does that and not mutual sexual interactions between a child and an adult. You may not like this fact, but the truth is, there has been a lot of cases of these mutual interactions that are mostly positive. That is just a reality you must accept. The only reason why some of those mutually positive interactions turn negative is because of sociogenic harm and not as a direct result of the sexual interaction itself. Here are some positive experiences that I can give: https://web.archive.org/web/20150316053 ... 2nd_ed.pdf, https://pismin.com/10.1037/0033-2909.124.1.22, and https://fstube.net/w/c2kvyEyUXSe5DwRn33vgUS. These are only a few out of many cases. As for the Positive Memories book, I would recommend giving a thorough read as there is a lot of things that verify the legitimacy of such accounts and some accounts outright claiming that it is a fictional one. As for the Rind study, this study has been highly scrutinized and "debunked" and "peer-reviewed" by some experts in the field due to a huge misunderstanding on the Rind study being about the rate of positive experiences kids experience from being sexually abused, even though no such study exists. The fact of the matter is, the Rind study is not about the rate of positive experiences kids experience from being sexually abused (that is silly), it's about adults recollection of sexual experiences, especially with an adult being either positive, negative, or neutral. In short, the ones that were positive or neutral had no elements of abuse involved such as coercion, manipulation, and exploitation. The ones that were negative had the elements of abuse involved. You can see this pattern in nearly all of the child sexual abuse research when there are elements of abuse involved; they are obviously hurt by it. But when there is none, it is either positive or neutral. Again, I can go deeper and elaborate on certain things, but that's for a paper I'm writing and would be too long of a comment. If there are any questions regarding anything I've said, feel free to ask. I am more than happy to clarify things with you and can have a friendly debate if you want.

[PorcelainLark]

I see yall talking about "kids can consent". I think that's wrong. How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet? If they don't even know what to expect, how is it consent?

MAPs are divided about about whether children can consent. There are "pro-contact" MAPs that argue children can consent and "anti-contact" MAPs that argue children can't consent. Many pro-contact MAPs would say sex education could occur at an earlier age. However, this isn't the main argument against children being able to consent.

If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids.

If you could control for whether the sexual relations were coercive or non-coercive, do you feel you'd see the same level of trauma for both?

A child is innocent and puts its trust in adults, cause they know more stuff etc, they will let you do and trust you easily, so you know you do have an advantage on them.

I think this is probably the strongest argument against children being able to consent.

I think you are lying to yourself, building this world where it is okay, with fake arguments, cause you are terrified of telling yourself you're hurting children.

Claiming children could consent to sexual relations doesn't translate to actively having sexual relations. Many pro-contact MAPs avoid it because they don't want to run the risk of breaking the law.

Now, I feel sorry you are so scared for your life, and die in many countries and all those risks cause indeed you cannot chose what you are attracted to. But you can choose not to act on it, and not to give anyone else the idea that it is okay to do so. You have to understand that children don't need that, and if you do this it's mainly for your own pleasure.

From our position it's not as simple as that. We have to ask ourselves, whether we feel someone that flashes a kid in a park deserves to have their life completely destroyed.The norms society currently has means that if we ever slip up, we can face the most severe consequences. It's not even about pleasure. I look back at myself as a fifteen year old, being paranoid about enjoying lolicon and feeling like my life could be over at any moment; no sane person can live like that. In my view, part of being mentally healthy is being able to accept failure, and MAPs can only accept failure if broader society stops treating everything pedophiles might do as a world-ending catastrophe. We have to push back against the hysteria.

I think that yes, it's not normal that you're so scared to just talk about it, that you are so bullied and can't share a secret. Cause you should be able to say you have these thoughts, so you can get help and understand why you have those and how you can not have them anymore. And there ARE ways to help you without putting you in danger. You can see a psychologist, they would help you with these thoughts so you don't have to act on it, and maybe get more included in society and finally feel normal. You can get Help and get a better situation and a better life, and it will be better for anyone. Plus, you can do age play with other adults who look younger if you really need to.
But please, consider going to therapy, they are not your enemies, they won't put you in any danger, they are here to try and help you without any judging! think about it if you really love the youth

I appreciate that this is an olive branch, and it's certainly a step up from the hatred a lot of people feel towards us. However, there's no evidence a person can stop being attracted to children. This is our unchosen identity, and therapy can't help us with the fact we're violently hated for an immutable characteristic. As long as sexual relations with children and CSAM are categorically treated as worse than murder, it's hardly surprising why the world is a dangerous place for us. Our situation is tied to the attitudes broader society has to adult-minor sexual contact.

You might find explicitly anti-contact MAP communities have more acceptable views than the ones here.

[BLueRibbon]

A shorter answer that deals with only part of this argument is:

Some reformist stances only advocate for moderate age of consent reform.

I've worked with young people from kindergarten to late adolescence. There is a vast difference in general development.

Each young person is different, but almost all young people understand what sex is by 12 years old. Many at a younger age, which as a teacher often means saying "don't joke about that in class".

I co-wrote the 16/12 statement with Fragment, as part of the Pro-Reform framework. It proposes a hybrid age of consent of 16/12.

[Bookshelf]

How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet? If they don't even know what to expect, how is it consent?

If the reason for not being able to consent is an absence of knowledge, this implies that consent can be accomplished through education. This would mean all you'd have to do is explain what it is and what to expect and they can consent.

This line of argument has more implications though. You're suggesting that someone shouldn't be allowed to try new things just because they haven't done it before— which would be difficult to do for children, seeing as part of the point of them is that there's a lot of things they've never done (eg, eating new cuisine; going to new cities or countries; trying new hobbies, especially dangerous ones like swimming; and so on).

However, this isn't surprising to hear from anyone. This is called sexceptionalism. Treating sex as a particularly special event, so much so that points that would be illogical in other contexts are used authentically when talking about sex. In this case, it would be generally laughed at if you were to walk up to a family and suggest that it should be illegal for their children to get on a flight to their holiday because they— "don't know what to expect", "they don't even know how planes work", "how could they consent if they don't know how all this works and don't know what to expect?".

Taken to the extreme, this argument would see sex banned in its entirety. Seeing as no one knows to expect until, well... they do it.

If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids

People are traumatized by traumatic things. Rape, for example. Physical abuse. So far it sounds like you're arguing that you can be traumatized by taking part in an event that you don't have knowledge on all the details for.

You should be critical about where this trauma comes from. Do you think it's more likely that trauma comes from;
A) An agreed upon moment of contact, where a boy let an older man touch him until he reached orgasm, simply because he didn't know what it was prior? (Even though he probably already knew what that was before, but let's pretend he's ignorant here), or;

B) An intense multiple hour long police interrogation, followed by weeks/months of regular court dates, surrounded by people telling them it was wrong and they are irreparably broken because of it, and watching someone who you know was actually quite nice to you being treated like some creature? That whenever you try to tell people it wasn't that bad, you'd be seen as sick and in need of help?

Have you not thought it odd that "so many people" say it's traumatic only years after the event?

You have to understand that children don't need that

This is another example of sexceptionalism— in reality, children don't really need most things. Neither do adults, for that matter. Branded clothes, sweets and chocolate, video games, regular family holidays, a pet hamster, art classes at school, dance lessons, football clubs, and so on. Arguing against sex on the basis of it not being a need is silly, because you would be inadvertently arguing against almost everything anyone does. You would need to provide a foundation for why something that isn't a need is harmful; which you haven't done here.

you can do age play with other adults who look younger if you really need to

Funny you should mention this. I recommend you look into general opinions on age play with consenting adults, and how it's viewed almost as abhorrent as actual contact with a child. Similar to the opinions of fictional stories or images, where there's no real victims and no real "harm", some countries going as far as to ban these despite the absence of real children.

People's opinion on age play and the like should help you understand that so-called harm isn't the reason we're hated; it's purely a bigoted perspective on a sexuality that people find disgusting.

I'll throw the question back to you. Why do you tell yourself that kids can't consent?

[G@yWad69]

Hello, I am here since some time now, reading only. I am not a Map nore am I an anti and I wouldn't call myself an Allie either.

I see yall talking about "kids can consent". I think that's wrong. How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet?

-If kids dont know what sex is, just tell them what sex is. This is why sex ed exists. This isnt a valid argument. Kids dont know alot of things, and what do we adults do? We teach them

If they don't even know what to expect, how is it consent?

-Just tell them what to expect? Giving a kid sex ed isnt that hard, we already do it all the time “this is your penis, if I touch it it will feel good” its literally not that hard

If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids.

-Explain to me a willing and mutual orgasm from a person they love and trust hurts kids? Whats more likely, a child using their natural body parts to have an orgasm is inherently traumatic, or being told over and over again by society that their bodies and minds are permantly ruined over a willing sexual encounter, that there lover is a monster,being dragged for YEARS, sometimes, DECADES, through the legal court system and watching the partner they loved and trusted by treated worse than a common animal, getting told that their childhood is “over” over a fucking orgasm. Being forced to keep a secret so big that your partner could very well end up dead on a prison floor if you share it and being told that they just suffered a fate worse than death(the “fate worse than death” is an orgasm btw) is inherently traumatic?

A child is innocent and puts its trust in adults, cause they know more stuff etc, they will let you do and trust you easily, so you know you do have an advantage on them.

-How is it taking advantage of someone to have sex with them? Do you think that sex is inherently abusive? Why is having willing sex with someone you love and trust by default “taking advantage” just because their under some arbitrary magical number? And innocent doesnt mean asexual. Fetuses masturbate in the womb. Humans are a naturally sexual species who enjoy orgasms from every age

I think you are lying to yourself, building this world where it is okay, with fake arguments, cause you are terrified of telling yourself you're hurting children.

-I think YOU are lying to yourself. Youve convinced yourself that someone under some magical arbitrary number will be permantly ruined and defiled if they are given a willing orgasm from a lover that is over some magical arbitrary number. What about a willing orgasm is so traumatizing to kids? Why would sexual pleasure be enjoyable to every other age group but magically destroy kids for life? That makes zero evolutionary sense. God forbid someone has a different opinion then the norm, then clearly they must be “lying”, because as we all know, it is IMPOSSIBLE for humans to have a differing opinion than the hive mind without being “liars”

It's even way worse when you say you like kids that can't even talk and don't have a big logic.

-I really dont give a shit what you think. Nepiophiles exist. If you have a problem with it, argue with God for creating us in the first place. And I didnt choose to be a nepiophile, I spontanously found myself being sexually attracted to babies and toddlers in the fourth/fifth grade. Just because you find it disgusting doesnt mean I can just get rid of it?? What am I supposed to do, get a lobotomy so surgeons can carve out the baby loving parts of my brain?? Hate myself forever?? Fucking kill myself?? If your answer is “yes you should kill yourself” do you not realize how fucked up it is to tell someone that they are better of dead for a sexual attraction that they did not choose, cannot control, that developed when they were in ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, before I even knew what porn or masturbation was, despite the fact that I have never broken the law and am not even Pro for babies and very limited C for toddlers, simply because you find it gross? I personally find it disgusting that teliophiles like saggy droopy tits and hairy roast beef and boring assholes who yap about taxes and mortages all day, yet im not gonna shit on the entire teliophile race and treat them as subhuman for an unwanted attraction they cant control. Dont like nepiophile? Argue with God for creating nepiophiles.

Some kids you say you are attracted to, can't even talk, and that's just straight up direct using. Like an object.

-Who said we’re pro C for nepiophillia? Most MAPs, including nepiophiles, draw the line at babies/toddlers. Your just assuming the worst in us to justify your hatred.

Now, I feel sorry you are so scared for your life, and die in many countries and all those risks cause indeed you cannot chose what you are attracted to. But you can choose not to act on it, and not to give anyone else the idea that it is okay to do so.

-So im not allowed to have an opinion just because you personally disagree with it?? God forbid I have a differing opinion than the norm on an issue that personally relates to me. Jesus Christ. You know humanity isnt a hive mind and people are allowed to have and express varying viewpoints right?? Right??! And one of the main reasons that people hate pedophiles/MAPs so much is because they not only view adult/minor sex as inherently abusive/damaging, they view it as a fate worse than death, a ten year old getting their dick felt up by their older lover is worse than getting beaten, getting neglected, getting tortured, getting kidnapped, even getting fucking murdered to the average teliophile. I find it riduculous that getting your dick felt up by someone older than you is on the same level, or worse than, being murdered, so why shouldnt I speak my mind? Because you disagree? I have the right to express my opinion.If that shitty world view is the main justification for raping, beating, kidnapping, torturing, imprisoning, ostracizing, and killing pedophiles, then why shouldn't we attack it directly?

You have to understand that children don't need that, and if you do this it's mainly for your own pleasure.

-Children dont need a lot of things. They dont need candy, which can rot their teeth. They dont need to swim at pools, which can cause them to drown. They dont need horseback riding lessons, which can cause them to be permantly injured or killed from kicking horses. They dont need contact sports, which causes permant brain damage. Theres a lot of things kids dont “need” that can cause far more pain, trauma, and even fucking death compared to a willing orgasm, yet I dont see you arguing against kids eating fast food or riding in cars(the leading cause of death in kids besides guns). Whats so special about sex that your perfectly fine with kids doing things that can cause permant paralysis or death, but you think sexual pleasure and orgasms are so special and sinful that it gives them a fate worse than death. Yall have all these special magical views on sex and dont realize how puritan yall sound. Sex is just that, sex. You feel up someones genitals, you feel good, then you go to sleep and forget about it. Your not creating a permant soul bond with a kid if you have sex with them. You dont give them genital cancer or make their dick explode. No kid is getting “traumatized for life” from having their chest felt up by someone they love. And if they claim they do, the harm is iatrogenic. It makes no evolutionary sense for kids to be permantnly “destroyed” over a fucking orgasm. Its quite literally, just an orgasm.

You have to understand that this hurts children way more than it gives them any "experience" they will get later anyway when they will be ready.

-How does it hurt children? What specifically about the sex act hurts them? Yall always claim that it “hurts kids” then refuse to eleborate on what SPECIFICALLY hurts them. Does the orgasm feel too good for their tiny brains to process? Seriously, what specifically “hurts” them and why does shit like beating kids for “discipline” cause absolutely zero harm yet giving an eager, willing, and informed kid sexual pleasure is the equivilant of murdering their soul??

I think that yes, it's not normal that you're so scared to just talk about it, that you are so bullied and can't share a secret. Cause you should be able to say you have these thoughts, so you can get help and understand why you have those and how you can not have them anymore. And there ARE ways to help you without putting you in danger. You can see a psychologist, they would help you with these thoughts so you don't have to act on it, and maybe get more included in society and finally feel normal.

-Psychologists arent trustworthy. They have just as much bigotry and hatred towards pedophiles as anyone else. Theres even research papers showing how therapists will refuse to treat pedophiles or report them to the police, even id they havent broken the law. Ill never be normal, and im ok with that. If “normal” is advocating for people to get the death penanlty over giving willing minors under some magical special number a blowjob. The DEATH SENTENCE, over a WILLING BLOWJOB. Then ill gladly NOT be normal. Yall will say that people who draw “underaged cartoon characters” in porn should be locked up, that if a 17 year old has consenting sex with a 15 year old thats perfectly fine, but if he turns 18 a day later he is suddenly an evil rapist and the 15 year old is suddenly permantly traumatized and he deserves to get locked up and tortured in prison. That orgasms are inherently life ruining and destroying. That sex is inherently abusive unless your over some magical number that isnt even rooted in human biology. That if you even THINK about minors in the “wrong way” you are by default a bad and evil person that needs to go hell. That a 19 year old is an evil sex predator grown ass man if they sleep with a 14 year old, but suddenly an innocent and pure little baby child if they sleep with a 30 year old. That teens are asexual and that the average 17 year old has more in common with a newborn baby than an 18 year old simply because they are both legal minors. That teens, biological adults that have been surviving as adults for the majority of human history, are “children”.That if you play with some kids dick you are worse than satan himself. That having sex with kids is “abuse” because they dont know what sex is, then refuse to give kids sex ed until their well into puberty. That a 9 year old is an innocent baby child that doesnt know anything if they have sex, but if they commit a crime, they are suddenly fully capable and should be held to the same or similar standards as adults. That minors are old enough to go to jail for “rape” because they “understand consent”, but too young to have sex with an older partner because they “dont understand consent”. Which is it? Make up yalls fucking minds. If thats what “normal” is, then im comfortable being myself.

You can get Help and get a better situation and a better life, and it will be better for anyone. Plus, you can do age play with other adults who look younger if you really need to.

-Most pedophiles dont like ageplay, because, this is gonna blow your mind, we are sexually attracted to children, not adults. A saggy old middle aged woman in a diaper is still a saggy old middle aged woman, even if she says “goo goo gah gah” and wears pigtails. I dont know how the myth that pedos like ageplay even got started. There is a HUGE difference between a cute little two year old and a grown ass hairy sweaty balding man in a diaper, even if they both suck on pacifiers and shit themselves. If you can find me a legal adult that looks like a 5 year old, then we can talk, but having a severe genitic disorder that biologically stunts you into a permant state of prepubsecence happens in less than 1% of the population, and being a raging pedo is more common than 1% of the population. The fact that teliophiles somehow cant see the difference between an ageplaying middle aged woman and a cute little 5 year old girl concerns me deeply.

But please, consider going to therapy, they are not your enemies, they won't put you in any danger, they are here to try and help you without any judging! think about it if you really love the youth

-Ive heard too many stories of MAPs getting their lives destroyed by opening up to a therapists. Im good. And therapy wont get rid of the daily death threats, doxxing, harassment, abuse, torture, murder, imprisonment, social shame, from the outside world.

Tldr; My views are that
1.Sex isnt inherently abusive. Teliophiles have this view that sex is inhrently abusive, and that even if you are loving, gentle, and patient with the child, and the child enjoys it, eagerly agrees to it, and wants more of it, thaat it is somehow by deafult “abusive”. I have the crazy and batshit insane view that something is only “abusive” if violence or coercion is involved, and that playing with a willing partys dick isnt inhrently “abusive” unless you, shocker, force them/are aggressive/manipulate them.

2.You dont need a bachelors degree or a 180 iq to consent. Consent isnt nearly as complicated as yall want it to be. Consent is simply saying “yes I want to have sex with you” nothing more, nothing less. Even a fucking toddler can do that.

3. Yall keep using the argument that “kids dont know what sex is so they cant have it” and that is like. The shittiest argument ever, it doesnt even make sense. If kids dont know what sex is…just…tell them?? Like what even is this argument??! Do yall even think when yall say things like this??

4. Kids have the right to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Kids have the right to say “no” and deny sexual advances from adults. By that logic, kids should also have the right to say “yes” and agree to sexual advances to adults. It makes no sense to say that kids should posses bodily autonomy but only if they dont do things I find disagreeable.

5.Pedophiles and our sexuality isnt inhrently abusive. We arent satanic monsters who climbed up from the depths of hell to reap the souls of innocent children. We are just guys with a fetish for flat tits and tight hairless pussy. Yall act like we are worse than hitler just because we dare to find someone attractive that you personally dont find attractive. We are not inhrently dangerous. Are sexuality is not inhrently dangerous. I am not a monster for simply existing. Ive been attracted to babies and toddlers since I was 10 years old. TEN. Was that little elementary school girl inhrently an evil and dangerous monster over her budding sexuality? You know what I think is inhrenlty dangerous? Shaming and repressing people over their natural sexual urges and demonizing them for simply having a pulse and existing. Sheltering kids from their sexualities and “protecting” them from their bodies and refusing to give them the basic info they need to stay safe sexually. Treating people who have had sex with adults as kids as “permanently ruined” and “better off dead” and refusing to listen to them when they say that they enjoyed it and dont want to see their partner in jail. Yall say yall “listen to all victims” unless, god forbid, the “victim” says they enjoyed it and love their partner. Suddenly they are “groomed” and we shouldnt listen to them.Locking people up in prison for decades over pixels on a screen, sometimes of little cartoon characters or ai generated robo kids. Giving the death penalty to people over willing sex, but letting people who commit fucking murder and torture get off with lighter sentences. Blanket lableing every sexual expiernce a minor has with an adult as “rape”, even if the kid agreed to it, even if the kid found it pleasureable, even if the kid enjoyed it and wanted more, even if there was zero violence or force or manipulation or coercion involved, simply because they are under some arbitrary magical number you pulled from your ass that isnt even rooted in human biology. That adults are supposed to teach kids how to do things, except for sex, then kids are supposed to fend for themselves and the adult is an evil person for teaching them. All these “arguments” for why kids “cant consent”(which is the dumbest thing ive ever heard, consent is literally just agreeing to something. Kids can agree to things, they arent braindead comatose patients) are fucking bullshit and sexseptionalist if you think about them for more than two minutes.

6.You dont need a “devloped brain” to have a willing and pleasurable orgasm. Its once again, just an orgasm. Theres nothing special about orgasms. It doensnt damage your soul. It isnt “impure” it isnt “evil” or “abusive”. Its just your genitals contracting in pleasure

You know what all this “kids dont deserve sexual education or bodily autnomy because a kid having an orgasm from an older partner is a fate worse than death” bullshit reminds me off? It reminds me of how deep sex negative and puritan ideals stemming directly from the church still continue to impact our society to this day. Yall will say shit like “pedos run the churches” then claim word for word things about sex, about how sex “ruins live”, and “destroys purity”, and is “inhrently abusive” that the church says, and yall somehow dont even realize it. Yall put sex on a special pedastal compared to everything else in life for no other reason other than you view sex as inhrently evil and impure, and use it to justify impriosing, murdering, torturing, slandering, an entire group of people over willing sexual encountersz, and im fucking sick of it.

I quite literally cant think of any justification for being against adult x minor sex other than. “Sex is inhrently evil and dangerous”. Which I fundamentally disagree with. If you can provide a reason for why your against adult x minor sex that doesnt fundamentally hinge on this viewpoint, then ill gladly have a conversation with you

I respect that you actually value our expierences and opinions enough to try to see things from our side, you easily couldve have been like “EWW PDF BURN IN HELL GO DIE!1!1” so at least theres that

[G@yWad69]

Also here. I wrote an entire thing debunking all the “arguments” people use for why kids “cant consent”. Please read this.

1.“Kids cant consent”

Here's the definition of consent straight from the dictionary

“Permission for something to happen or agreement to do something”

So children are incapable of agreeing to things? Children are incapable of giving permission for things to happen? No child in the history of existence on planet earth has ever agreed or given permission to anything ever? Doesn't that directly contradict the argument that kids cant say no to adults? Kids are sentient human beings, not dolls, they agree to things all the time. Legally, no, kids have no autonomy or agency, legally kids cant consent, but thats the law, not a kids innate power.

2.“Kids cant comprehend sex”

So kids can comprehend artificial modern social concepts like calculus and Shakespeare and social niceties and long division, but an innate biological urge observed in even the human fetus(human fetuses have been shown masturbating to completion) is impossible for kids to comprehend. Sex is in fact so easy to comprehend that even bugs and frogs can comprehend it.

3.“Kids cant give informed consent”

So inform them? Am I missing something?

We dont call educating a teenager on driving “grooming” despite the potential risk for permanant injury or death. We dont call supervising kids swimming “child abuse” despite the risk of injury or death. We dont call going horseback riding with your kid to bond with them trauma inducing, despite the completely unncessary risk to the child and the danger of 900 pound kicking machine that gets easily startled. No, we just educate the kids on the potential risks and benefits and either do it with them or supervise them to pleasurably bond and teach. All of these things are far more dangerous, life altering, and DEADLY compared to a child having a bad or neutral experience with sex.

4.“Kids dont know the consequences”

What are “the consequences”? Seriously. That a baby gets in your tummy? Because we explain that to kids all the time. The risks of disease? Because we also explain the concepts of disease and disease prevention to kids all the time. Seriously, what are the consequences of sucking dick that are so severe and complicated that children can't grasp it but can grasp horses and automobiles and not getting stomped to death or run over?

5.“Sex is dangerous”

So are motor vehicle accidents, one of the leading cause of death and injury in children and teenagers, not to mention technically unnecessary due to other forms of transportation, but we don't ban kids from it due to the “risk” of harm, no matter how frequent or severe, because its a helpful skill to have and enjoyable. Poor diets are the leading causes of obesity in minors, yet we dont ban kids from eating candy despite the potential risks of getting infections, losing body parts, gaining a lifelong disability like diabetes. No,, we just educate, supervise, and participate directly, which is perfectly understandable when it comes to all these other examples but magically becomes a fate worse than death(literally) when it comes to sex.

6.“Kids dont want sex, especially not with adults”

So why do we constantly have to fight so tooth and nail against children trying to participate in sexual activities? Why does it take years, if not decades, to convince children that their sexual experience was bad? How come kids constantly go against our backs and have sex anyways even when we tell them time and time again what a sinful evil it is? If its so unwanted, then why do children themselves make up almost the majority of cases of csa, even without adult intervention or “grooming”? What nasty, highly prolific predator is running around grooming human fetuses into masturbating? Is their an army of nepis grooming babies and toddlers into humping their stuffed animals? How come its almost impossible to manipulate children into enjoying physical abuse or emotional abuse, but the minute any form of sex is involved, all it takes is simply informing them of what it is and the kid is brainwashed and ruined for life?

7.“Kids cant say no, all they do is blindly follow adults”

Excuse me, what?! Has anyone who uses this argument ever even met a kid before? Trying making a toddler eat their veggies and see how blindly they obey you. Try making a teenager do their homework to see that blind adult/child obedience first hand. The whole thing with kids is that their own innate desires are so strong that it is extremely difficult to get a kid to do something an adult wants unless the kid genuinely wants it, yet when what a kid wants is sex, the act of sex is considered so dirty and impure that no “pure and innocent” kid would ever want it, so its written of as “grooming”. In fact, kids are so hard wired NOT to blindly follow adults that it takes physical coercion like beatings or spankings to make them follow the simplest of orders, which I agree is wrong, and I agree physical coercion into sex should be considered abuse. Heres the thing though, anti cs consider even non physically coercive sex, even when the child proposes the idea and willingly goes along with it(which antis deny ever happens despite the proof that it happens, and extremely frequently at that), a form of abuse. The very concept of grooming in most instances of AMSC is shaky at best. You could also say that its grooming for abuse, but without the coercion, whats the abuse? Is it the sex? Is sex innately abusive?


8.“Sex is a complex act, too complex for kids”

Sex is putting your penis in a hole over and over. Sex is sucking a penis like a popsicle. Sex is sitting and letting someone suck your penis. What about this is so complex that kids cant understand it?

9. “What if an adult forces it on a kid or manipulates them?”

What if an adult forces literally anything ever on a kid? What's so special about sex that it should lead to prison or death but everything else gets a free pass? How come full youth autonomy without any chance of adult manipulation or force only really matters when it comes to base pleasures like sex or alcohol, but when it comes to punishments its fully okay to put a kid in timeout, ground them, suspend them, or even send them to prison, despite the high change of manipulation or force? Besides, what if an adult forces a kid to drive when the kid isnt ready, which could lead to trauma around cars and even death. Should we ban driving for minors? What if an adult forces a kid to go biking, which could lead to trauma or even a life ending accident? Can kids consent to bikes? Do kids even understand how bikes work or the consequences of not looking both ways before biking across the street?(permanent paralysis or death). What if an adult forces or manipulates a kid to play football, which could lead to lifelong trauma or permanent brain injury? Should sports be considered child abuse? None of these skills are technically necessary and all involve the adults' pleasure and gratification. Walking isn't necessary, we have wheelchairs, but disgusting child abusers force innocent babies to walk before they are physically developed enough or mature enough to understand the concept of walking. Why Is no one advocating for the woodchipper for these cruel, walking obsessed monsters?

10.“But the shame from sex is harmful”

So we should stop making sex shameful and be more open about sex with kids, glad that we agree.

11. “But the science prooves grooming is real and that pedophillia is a mental illness and that children are intellectually inferior”

Just like how science proved that women are intellectually inferior. Just like how the science proved that black people are intellectually infeiror. Just like how the science proven that women enjoying sex was due to brainwashing and mental illness. Just like how the science proved that black people wanting freedom from slavery was a mental illness. Just like how science proved that homosexuality was harmful and a mental illness. Time and time again the science always prooves that minority groups wanting freedom and autonomy is wrong and that sex is evil. Maybe we should just get to the root of all these problems and just make sex illegal outside of marriage and procreation, and make sure that the government gives no one any legal freedom to make their own choices with their own lives and bodies. Then we can guarantee zero harm and consequences for the citizens own good! Besides, can anyone really freely consent to anything?(Bonus point, science also proves that intellectual and physical/emotional development begins to decline in age, can the elderly even consent to sex? What if they forget what consent is? Maybe we can compromise and make the age of consent 25-40, to protect from any potential risk and harm)

It seems like there’s this fantastical, puritan, sinless ideal of children and childhood, the child is not a person with their own wills and desires, but an asexual creature that blindly obeys its masters with no wishes of its own, a paradigm of sin free existence, begging to have its innocence corrupted from constant lurking devils in dirty white vans saying “free candy”, and once it is subjugated to that corruption, the pure and innocent virgin creature is ruined forever, and forced into a fate far worse than death. At least that's what the average hysterical 20 year old on tiktok tells me, lol.

It seems like the driving force for anti c views is that sex is an inherently disgusting and impure act, with nothing valuable to offer a person outside of either procreation or control. In anti c views, sex is not a pleasurable bonding activity or a fun and helpful skill to develop, it is a dirty and carefully crafted control tactic, forced by outside corrupters onto innocent and pure virgins. Something to be weaponized, something to be contractual, its not just an act anymore, its a philosophy, a philosophy so intense and complicated that it demands to be negotiated via governmental contracts. Its no longer getting your dick sucked, its getting your SOUL sucked.

And its so frustrating because these are the same arguments used to fine, incarcerate, torture/maim, or even MURDER people, and their repeated ad naseum without any explanation on what makes sex so special that it derserves this “special treatment” in the first place.

[Harlan]

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How could a kid consent to sex when they don't even know what it is yet ? If they don't even know what to expect, how is it consent? If so many people tell they were traumatized because of being abused as a child, it's that it does indeed hurts the kids. A child is innocent and puts its trust in adults, cause they know more stuff etc, they will let you do and trust you easily, so you know you do have an advantage on them.
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It's even way worse when you say you like kids that can't even talk and don't have a big logic. Some kids you say you are attracted to, can't even talk, and that's just straight up direct using. Like an object.
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You have to understand that this hurts children way more than it gives them any "experience" they will get later anyway when they will be ready.

Why do adults teach children to walk from the second year of life if they can run away and get lost or injured ? How can a child consent to learn to ride a bicycle / horse if he doesn't know what to expect and might lose his balance and get hurt ? A child may consent to play traumatic sports, but there is always a risk of serious injury. There are videos on YouTube of children aged 7-12 jumping with a parachute. How could they consent if they don't know what to expect ? Were they pushed into a plane against their will ?

If children cannot give consent then circumcision procedures should be recognized as violence act and be banned ? Why is it possible to cut the skin off the penis and it does not cause mental trauma, but stroking the penis suddenly causes it lol
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The first consent is a exploration. A person evaluates his feelings, whether it is pleasant for him or not. If de If an activity causes disgust, severe pain or fear, he expresses a desire to stop it immediately. To avoid injury, there are safety rules or a mentor who guides.

The problem with stories about "abuse" is that firstly, stories about positive experiences are drowned out, censored, condemned. An "echo-chamber" effect occurs in which people only hear frightening negative stories. This brings up the second part of the problem, people become influenced by overwhelming negative narratives and can "reconceptualize" their originally neutral or positive experiences in accordance with these narratives because positive experience is excluded from the information field. This leads to mixing between victims of real violence and people who have been affected by iatrogenic and sociogenic influences.