-Someone on here, in one of the threads, once said something about it ultimately being a good thing if the anti-age gap standard became so severe that it became untenable; people would have to see how unreasonable it was and rebel (I can't remember exactly what they said). I don't think I took it very seriously, at time, it might have seem far-fetched to me, but I think I'm coming around to that point of view, if I understand/remember them correctly (and this isn't to suggest that I think anti-age gap prejudice should be promoted in the hopes that it might eventually lead to this or that there's no other/better way).
-Most men, not all (not even all straight teleiophile men), prefer girls and women who appear to be in their reproductive years (as I've said a million times before, menarche is considered delayed if it hasn't occurred by 15, leaving aside precocious puberty it can occur as early as ten. The average girl has menarche at 12, although it's different for different racial/national groups and the average age has lowered over time due to less malnutrition and high-fat diets, I vaguely remember one study that put the latest figure at 11.9 for American girls. Typically a girl's periods will become more consistent and she will reach full sexual maturity within two years after menarche although I think the age at which menarche/spermarche would be considered delayed might be the least arbitrary standard for adulthood since there's a black and white difference between people who can reproduce and those who can't for age-related reasons. Menopause, which occurs when a woman has no more functioning eggs available and this ultimately leads to a virtual cessation of estrogen and progesterone production, is considered premature if it occurs before 40; only around 1% of women will hit menopause before 40, and early if it occurs before 45; only around 5% of women will hit menopause before 45. Only around 1% of women hit menopause after 60 and around 10% of women will hit menopause after 55, so most hit menopause between 45 through 54. Sorry for the overly long run-off point but to generalize and simplify things we can say that women's reproductive years are from 15 through 44, although women in their early 40s might be perimenopausal and pregnancy will be higher risk and harder to achieve at that age). No amount of cultural conditioning or social condemnation or moralizing negates this basic fact that is rooted in human biology. It seems to me that the taboo around men in their 40s, 50s, etc. expressing attraction to or interest in women in their 20s (and not even just those in their early 20s, even the ones in their late twenties and sometimes 30s) has gotten worse over the years or decades. I don't know if I have a skewed perception of things and most people wouldn't be critical of a 50-year-old man who wants to date a 25-year-old woman or if things have 'always' been this bad ('always' as in since, let's say, the 80s. I think the early 70s are sometimes considered the start of the 'modern modern' era and it's hard to imagine that people were as opposed to men in their 30s or 40s or older being with women in their 20s back then; even if it was taboo it's hard to believe that it hasn't gotten worse. The average 20-something-year old woman will probably personally prefer men in their 20s or 30s, I'm sure that's always been true, but that's not what I'm talking about).
-What I'm getting at is that if it's taboo for middle-aged men, or even those in their 30s, to express interest in younger women you are forbidding them from lusting after or crushing on most of the women they see in movies, tv shows, magazines, etc., most of the women who are presented as sex symbols in American pop culture. Depending on how old these men are, you're telling them that they're not allowed to be attracted to most of the women whom they're attracted to. Speaking intuitively (not in terms of ideals, logical consistency or right or wrong), it's a harder hit emotionally to be told that it's shameful to be attracted to women in their 20s because it's impossible to avoid them. It is very harsh (for me and I'm sure some other people feel the same way) to scold or reprimand someone for being attracted to teens but depending on your line of work you probably don't come across them that often, even most of the teens in tv shows and movies are played by people in their 20s. So it is harsh but you could soften it with, "Jesus, can't you just drool over the girls who are 18 and older, do you need to go that young," that won't help if you're madly in love with a specific teenage girl but if we're just talking about attraction there are other fish in the sea. Even the "it's okay after 25 because that's when the brain develops" line of reasoning is a little easier to deal with.
Can you imagine going your entire life constantly trying to guard against lustful thoughts or feelings of romantic affection for women who are forbidden fruit and never being free to at least semi-satisfy your desires via fantasy because you don't want to be perverted or creepy or exploitative and you just have no outlet for your sexuality in terms of fantasy because you've convinced yourself that attraction can be immoral, realistically I wouldn't be surprised if most of the middle-aged men who claim to be deeply disgusted at the idea of being with women in their early 20s fantasize about them regularly (I'm sure people lie in claiming to not be attracted to certain age groups just as they lie about not being attracted to racial out-group members or people they dislike or at odds with, etc. and insofar as that can help them to maintain a sense of dignity I don't even necessarily have a problem with it, I just wish that people would stop shaming other people for their attraction) but it can still be really psychologically damaging to have to keep that to yourself for fear of being shamed or humiliated for what is naturally a source of pleasure for you.
-There are some women in their 20s who are so shockingly attractive that you cannot be a heterosexual teleiophile man and not fantasize about them, unless you're suffering from depression, anxiety or some unbearable emotional distress or have no libido for that reason or as the result of various medical issues. You cannot realistically expect men to not sexualize them (this is obviously true about teenagers as well but, again, they're not most of the fish in the sea). They (the antis) are setting up this standard that is impossible to meet and I don't think they realize, tactically, what a long-term win this might be for the pro-MAP side. People could respond to this unrealistic/overly brutal standard by creating a more moderate compromise (e.g. 'how about 18 and up but no younger?") but it still has the potential to make average people much more sympathetic to true pedophiles and hebephiles (not that I really think of hebephilia or ephebophilia especially as meaningful categories) since they can now relate to being shamed for wanting something that would give them pleasure, not even for specific acts or 'fetishes' but for being attracted to certain people (who; not what, when, where or how). People often think in absolutes and it might be easier to just eliminate a standard than to compromise by modifying it. That people who will wave the lgbtq flag and talk about 'love is love' and removing some of the shame around female sexual liberation (not that feminists necessarily support this to begin with but they're not likely to shame women when they are promiscuous or 'allow men to degrade them') will turn around and demonize male sexuality (which is what so much, if not all, of the anti-age gap stigma is ultimately rooted in, arguably even when women are being shamed; as much as I don't want to take a page out of the feminist handbook by claiming that "what appears to be discrimination against you is really all about me, as usual)" or critique older men for either being attracted to or preferring significantly younger women as though it were their choice is something I will never be able to wrap my mind around (what is so special about homosexuals? What about incestuous relationships? What about the girl who falls in love with the bad guy, or the 'Nazi,' as much as she hates what he does or some of his beliefs? I've never understood why they are the 'it' group when it comes to forbidden or misunderstood love or why it is only in regards to homosexuality that we start talking about 'love is love' and 'attraction is perfectly healthy and natural,' etc. I DON'T GET IT). I mean no disrespect to individual people, anyone (feminist, Trump support, hardcore leftist, alt-right white nationalist, anarchist, BLM critical race theorist, ) can have a good heart (their ideas might contradict that but people are complicated) but I am never, ever going to see myself as a 'liberal guy.'
Things getting worse before they get better, because they got worse
Re: Things getting worse before they get better, because they got worse
Oh, could you be referring to me? On this thread: https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=1887
I believe that a pendulum effect in which increased persecution of youth attracted people (and I emphasize that: youth attracted people, not only MAPs. Because, as you say, there are people who are totally willing to crucify a 50-year-old man who is looking for a relationship with a 24-year-old woman, for example) triggering social change that takes us to the opposite extreme is our strongest hope, yes. Yeah, that's why my avatar is a pendulum lol
So, if it was my message you were referring to, I'm really glad to have inspired you!
That said, I do believe we should put more effort into supporting persecuted people and making them see that we have common goals. Whenever a 16yo person is ashamed and called a pedophile for wanting a relationship with a 14yo... whenever a 50yo person is ashamed and called a pedophile for wanting a relationship with a 24yo... we should be there to say: "Hey, this harassment against you is awful. There is nothing wrong with that age gap. There are many relationships with that age gap that have been positive for both people involved, many testimonials that make it clear that there is no intrinsic harm in such relationships. People who harass you for this reason do so either because they have been deceived into believing that there is an intrinsic harm that doesn't actually exist, or because they want an excuse to tell others what to do, to have control over them, and to have a scapegoat to hurt while feeling morally superior, thus satisfying their sadistic instincts. By the way... have you considered that this might also be true for age gaps larger than yours?"
I believe that a pendulum effect in which increased persecution of youth attracted people (and I emphasize that: youth attracted people, not only MAPs. Because, as you say, there are people who are totally willing to crucify a 50-year-old man who is looking for a relationship with a 24-year-old woman, for example) triggering social change that takes us to the opposite extreme is our strongest hope, yes. Yeah, that's why my avatar is a pendulum lol
So, if it was my message you were referring to, I'm really glad to have inspired you!
I agree. Sometimes I can even think that, coldly speaking, this kind of accelerationism would indeed be a useful strategy... but I can't consider myself morally entitled to contribute to an increase in youth attracted people's suffering simply in the hope that in the long term it will serve to reduce it.John_Doe wrote: Tue Dec 23, 2025 6:59 pm (and this isn't to suggest that I think anti-age gap prejudice should be promoted in the hopes that it might eventually lead to this or that there's no other/better way).
That said, I do believe we should put more effort into supporting persecuted people and making them see that we have common goals. Whenever a 16yo person is ashamed and called a pedophile for wanting a relationship with a 14yo... whenever a 50yo person is ashamed and called a pedophile for wanting a relationship with a 24yo... we should be there to say: "Hey, this harassment against you is awful. There is nothing wrong with that age gap. There are many relationships with that age gap that have been positive for both people involved, many testimonials that make it clear that there is no intrinsic harm in such relationships. People who harass you for this reason do so either because they have been deceived into believing that there is an intrinsic harm that doesn't actually exist, or because they want an excuse to tell others what to do, to have control over them, and to have a scapegoat to hurt while feeling morally superior, thus satisfying their sadistic instincts. By the way... have you considered that this might also be true for age gaps larger than yours?"
Re: Things getting worse before they get better, because they got worse
aeterna91,
It was probably your post that inspired this, I thank you for it.
For a long time I've really held to the idea that your peace of mind can't depend on understanding how other people justify their position. I'm not saying that there's no value in trying to understand the other man's point of view when it comes to making peace with him or getting along or considering the needs of others, I just don't want to be up at night trying to come to a conclusion about how so and so could possibly justify something so evil, so callous, so unfair, etc. etc. I'm sometimes wary when I hear people talking about something being 'understandable' because I read it as 'code' for 'semi-justifiable in a way or from a perspective that should be taken seriously.' If a man randomly attacks you and and you ask him, "Why do you attack me? What have I done" and he explains that you were wearing a blue hat on Sunday when it was windy outside, that will only mean something to you if you can relate to the idea that there's something wrong with wearing a blue hat on a Sunday when it's windy outside. If you can't, his position will be more obviously arbitrary to you ('more obviously arbitrary' in comparison to, say, attacking someone who's no longer a threat for having committed some heinous crime). Even that being the case, I'm getting up there in years (40 next Saturday) and the idea that it's wrong for middle-aged and elderly men to date or to even just be attracted to women in their 20s is something I'm emotionally threatened by (teenagers too but it's worse with women in their 20s because of their mass visibility everywhere you turn. I'm attracted to women in their 30s but women under 30 are such a huge percentage of the total number of women I'm attracted to. I don't know how much I'm repeating myself, I don't want to go through my OP right now, but I'm rarely attracted to women over the age of 40. It does happen but the number of 40+ women whom I'm very attracted to, the point where if they stayed that age I would be attracted enough to them to want a long-term committed monogamous relationship with them; if I was interested in such a relationship to begin with, is much smaller. I swear I mean no disrespect to older women, my mother is 71 and she's an angel, but it's very unlikely that I would ever have a crush on a woman over 40- a 'crush' is a little different than just basic attraction. So if I accept anti-age gap dogma there's almost no sexual outlet for me even just in terms of fantasy, some would even criticize an elderly man for being attracted to women in their 30s; no more crushes, no more sexual fantasies, I'd just have to force myself to pretend that I'm asexual. Mia Khalifa actually said something against older men being with younger women at one point, no disrespect to her, how insanely harsh is that; to know that most straight men have to find you attractive and produce content that they will find shockingly erotic yet be telling them that they're not allowed to 'participate' or enjoy it because of their age. What she said about wanting Hamas to film their torture and murder of random innocent Israelis is probably the worst thing that I have ever heard any social media personality say and you can imagine there are probably Israeli men, and women, who like her in that way); I am conventionally unattractive (body especially) and have severe erectile dysfunction (half the time I have no libido/feel sexually numb and don't feel emotionally connected enough to women to sexualize them anyway) so there would be no practical hope for real life intimacy anyways but there is still something shockingly harsh to me about the idea that the attraction to younger people itself is inappropriate, that I shouldn't view porn or that I should constantly 24/7 suppress my attraction to celebrities, models, youtubers, actual women (not that I ever leave the house or could feel attraction to women I came across if I did under those circumstances), etc.
ANYWAY, because anti-age gap relationship prejudice triggers insecurity in me I was trying to figure out how people justify the idea that it's wrong for older men to be interested in younger women. You'll often hear, "she's old enough to be your daughter" and my response (in my head, anyway) has always been that people change and because people change, relationships change as well. This is undeniably true but I can kind of understand the idea that first impressions shape a relationship years and decades later. A 70-year-old man won't relate to his 40-year-old son the way that he did when he (his son) was 10, but that initial relationship is the foundation for the relationship later on even as it evolves. So even though I don't agree I can kind of work out why it would be seen as creepy for a 50-year-old man, who has children, to be crushing on women his daughter's age (let's say he fathered her when he was 25) if it's super-taboo for adults to be interested in children for age-related reasons (as opposed to just sexualizing the parent-child relationship specifically which doesn't apply to all child-adult dynamics), those girls might have had sleepovers with his daughter when they were kids and he would have been in a position of authority over them. This isn't really thought through but I say all of this to say that de-stigmatizing adult-prepubescent child unions goes a long way in de-stigmatizing significant age gap relationships between adults as well, I think you more or less have a point when you say that people who resent the stigmatizing of their preferred age gap should consider that their counter-criticism applies to much of the stigma regarding more 'extreme' age gap intimacy as well.
It really is astonishing to me that people who maintain the 'love is love' view when it comes to gay relationships or IR relationships can't see the connection when it comes to age-gap relationships (especially when they're not opposed to, say, a 16-year-old having a sexual relationship with someone, only if it's with a significantly older man, so it's not even about their not being ready for sex but a wrongful attraction) and they always act as though they can't possibly understand how the younger partner could get something out of it (they won't necessarily even bother with the pretense of a 'greater good' consequentialist defense, happiness just isn't part of their equation).
It was probably your post that inspired this, I thank you for it.
For a long time I've really held to the idea that your peace of mind can't depend on understanding how other people justify their position. I'm not saying that there's no value in trying to understand the other man's point of view when it comes to making peace with him or getting along or considering the needs of others, I just don't want to be up at night trying to come to a conclusion about how so and so could possibly justify something so evil, so callous, so unfair, etc. etc. I'm sometimes wary when I hear people talking about something being 'understandable' because I read it as 'code' for 'semi-justifiable in a way or from a perspective that should be taken seriously.' If a man randomly attacks you and and you ask him, "Why do you attack me? What have I done" and he explains that you were wearing a blue hat on Sunday when it was windy outside, that will only mean something to you if you can relate to the idea that there's something wrong with wearing a blue hat on a Sunday when it's windy outside. If you can't, his position will be more obviously arbitrary to you ('more obviously arbitrary' in comparison to, say, attacking someone who's no longer a threat for having committed some heinous crime). Even that being the case, I'm getting up there in years (40 next Saturday) and the idea that it's wrong for middle-aged and elderly men to date or to even just be attracted to women in their 20s is something I'm emotionally threatened by (teenagers too but it's worse with women in their 20s because of their mass visibility everywhere you turn. I'm attracted to women in their 30s but women under 30 are such a huge percentage of the total number of women I'm attracted to. I don't know how much I'm repeating myself, I don't want to go through my OP right now, but I'm rarely attracted to women over the age of 40. It does happen but the number of 40+ women whom I'm very attracted to, the point where if they stayed that age I would be attracted enough to them to want a long-term committed monogamous relationship with them; if I was interested in such a relationship to begin with, is much smaller. I swear I mean no disrespect to older women, my mother is 71 and she's an angel, but it's very unlikely that I would ever have a crush on a woman over 40- a 'crush' is a little different than just basic attraction. So if I accept anti-age gap dogma there's almost no sexual outlet for me even just in terms of fantasy, some would even criticize an elderly man for being attracted to women in their 30s; no more crushes, no more sexual fantasies, I'd just have to force myself to pretend that I'm asexual. Mia Khalifa actually said something against older men being with younger women at one point, no disrespect to her, how insanely harsh is that; to know that most straight men have to find you attractive and produce content that they will find shockingly erotic yet be telling them that they're not allowed to 'participate' or enjoy it because of their age. What she said about wanting Hamas to film their torture and murder of random innocent Israelis is probably the worst thing that I have ever heard any social media personality say and you can imagine there are probably Israeli men, and women, who like her in that way); I am conventionally unattractive (body especially) and have severe erectile dysfunction (half the time I have no libido/feel sexually numb and don't feel emotionally connected enough to women to sexualize them anyway) so there would be no practical hope for real life intimacy anyways but there is still something shockingly harsh to me about the idea that the attraction to younger people itself is inappropriate, that I shouldn't view porn or that I should constantly 24/7 suppress my attraction to celebrities, models, youtubers, actual women (not that I ever leave the house or could feel attraction to women I came across if I did under those circumstances), etc.
ANYWAY, because anti-age gap relationship prejudice triggers insecurity in me I was trying to figure out how people justify the idea that it's wrong for older men to be interested in younger women. You'll often hear, "she's old enough to be your daughter" and my response (in my head, anyway) has always been that people change and because people change, relationships change as well. This is undeniably true but I can kind of understand the idea that first impressions shape a relationship years and decades later. A 70-year-old man won't relate to his 40-year-old son the way that he did when he (his son) was 10, but that initial relationship is the foundation for the relationship later on even as it evolves. So even though I don't agree I can kind of work out why it would be seen as creepy for a 50-year-old man, who has children, to be crushing on women his daughter's age (let's say he fathered her when he was 25) if it's super-taboo for adults to be interested in children for age-related reasons (as opposed to just sexualizing the parent-child relationship specifically which doesn't apply to all child-adult dynamics), those girls might have had sleepovers with his daughter when they were kids and he would have been in a position of authority over them. This isn't really thought through but I say all of this to say that de-stigmatizing adult-prepubescent child unions goes a long way in de-stigmatizing significant age gap relationships between adults as well, I think you more or less have a point when you say that people who resent the stigmatizing of their preferred age gap should consider that their counter-criticism applies to much of the stigma regarding more 'extreme' age gap intimacy as well.
It really is astonishing to me that people who maintain the 'love is love' view when it comes to gay relationships or IR relationships can't see the connection when it comes to age-gap relationships (especially when they're not opposed to, say, a 16-year-old having a sexual relationship with someone, only if it's with a significantly older man, so it's not even about their not being ready for sex but a wrongful attraction) and they always act as though they can't possibly understand how the younger partner could get something out of it (they won't necessarily even bother with the pretense of a 'greater good' consequentialist defense, happiness just isn't part of their equation).