The Indianner Kommune & several views

[anarchist of love]

INDIANNER KOMMUNE CONTACT: Postbox 810361 D8500 Nurnberg Germany Phone: 011 0911-266786 (from U.S.)
(Not sure if this info is still good! Likely at least the phone number has changed)
(I might return to this and edit it, but don't feel like doing it right now!)
NOTE: This is an ANARCHIST project that DARES to OPENLY CHALLENGE bigots of all types, and has! They are not timid!

(Anyone know if they're even still going??)

Newsletter for Our English Speaking Friends (see below)
A Few words of caution to visitors (included a ways below)

THESE ARE THE POLITICAL DEMANDS OF HARASSED CHILDREN

"Against the drill to fascism by compulsory schooling, consumary delusion, ecoterror, christian-religion's Dogma & Moral sexuality--deviation prohibitions, compulsive heterosexuality, couple relations & other forms of drug-dependence, against adaption to the society, and her behavior prisons & psychiatrisations" --handwritten ad in EIDOS magazine Vol 7, Number 3. p.67
EIDOS can be reached via www.eidos.org) ("EIDOS" means: "Everyone Is Doing Outrageous Sex" and is published by an ARMED badass woman!!)
Back to Indianner of Germany (since 1972!)

LIVING IN COMMUNES!
We belong to ourselves, not mothers or fathers or teachers or the state! Life is a war for us! The "peace movement" sides with our enemy in this war and betrays our liberation! The Law makes LIFE [in]to HELL for runaways, truants, all free-thinking young people and their Lovers. This is the condition of their so-called "peace". Their "peace" is schooling, training, child-guidance, conditioning, "education". 3 to 5 children in almost every country die every day in this war. Solidarity for the black people in their liberation-struggle! Thousands of under 16s are sealed up in cruel families, homes, psychiatric units, residential schools, assessment centres, secure places, youth custody wings. This is the work of grown ups they can't run their lives without rules. Laws, schools, families, churches, drugs, TV, cars, fashion, money, police, weapons all products of a deformed adult world. Hard Rock, Punk, heavy metal aren't really any different: they have raped our sexual desires and put them on sale like merchandise in store windows. The youth industry has captured our bodies and minds and crushed our sexual urges It sells them as books & theories and lectures and TV documents and adverts. UP YOURS! We'll love whoo we want to! No apologist of the "peace movement" ever talks about the ritual terrorising of children or the destruction of childhood This ritual is the REAL reason for the nuclear threat they keep on talking about TRAITORS, you are no different from parents and pigs and screws who lock us up, pump us with drugs, label us delinquent, hyperactive, maladjusted, when we say FUCK SCHOOL!

You call us "immature" "crazy" and "sick" just to keep us under control for as long as possible. We can learn more outside school. School teaches only boredom and hate

LIFE WITHOUT SCHOOL
We are not toys for adults! We want rights for children! Our commune is a refuge for young people who escape from homes, psychiatric torutre chambers and nazi parents. We live of odds and ends, and run a bike repair shop [in Nurnberg]. Visit us, stay with us, join our struggle for our rights. Let us know how we can reach others interested in our commune.


THESE ARE THE POLITICAL DEMANDS OF HARASSED CHILDREN:

The right to leave home when we like, and to live with anyone we choose.
Abolish all penalties against runaways!
End compulsory schooling and corporal punishment!
Close down all [professionally run] homes, institutions, custody centers and other prisons!
Our right to enjoy our own bodies and to choose who we mix with. No laws that punish loving sexual relationships among and with children
The right to travel anywhere without adults.
Financial independence from grownups.
Children are not playthings for bored and lonely mothers to pamper

===============
INDIANNER KOMMUNE Newsletter for our english speaking friends Aug. 1992

"THE FACE OF ASMODIUS" (press release by Indianner Kommune January 25, 1985, Nurnberg, West Germany)
BICYCLE TOUR, 1992
NOTE: the following information is represented here out of an interest to include all groups (as well as individuals) who are trying to do something meaningful for young people and pedosensuals. If you don't agree with all of the views here, feel free to add to the dialogue!


Hallo friend!
We are glad to send you some NEWS of our children rights commune. WHO is this commune?? Since 1972 (!) we keep on running a commune of children, young persons and adults. We are not related "by blood" but by our ideas.

We live together and work to remove the hindrances to get together. we travel together in the holidays, fight for our economical independence, and for our rights. We are against violence in politics and sexuality, also against psychological (reasons of) violence(-structures) and try to make them visible in our disputes. For this we try to develop our "own" culture of behaviour and communication far away from the traditional customs and languages, because "normality" means violent normality against us in daily-life and against our little friends, who want to be with us.

The children who come to us are from the neighbourhood, some come from the further surroundings, some are here for a short time after they run away from their parents' houses, from homes and psychiatries.

For children and younger people -also for friendly old ones- we run a telefone, where we try to give answers to their questions and inform the callers about OUR daily problems, needs and actions. We offer sleeping, showering, changing of clothes eating and intercession for harrassed young people, if they ask us.

We run a bicycle-shop, of used bikes and recycle odds and ends and we work hard to finance all this. We fight to get our "own" place in the countryside with a lake, where we can recover and plant fruit trees and food to provide ourselves.

But from this aim we are still far away, because we are only a small, completely overtaxed group of activists There are no other groups like our one is, it seems to be too hard to build up such structures in these times, too many things to bear for a single person who starts such a place with outside attacks and inside conflicts.

In 1989 we had reached the number of 12 proud and active members, women and men, but the structures almost completely broke down, ten of us moved out after big differences about the preferrence of love-orientations, which then lead to an "authoritarian"-conflict, because some of us insisted in their "principle" wishes to younger people but not to adults. We have tried to describe this conflict in our comic against senility and in "ADULTO-EATER" #1/Jan. 1992.

1989 the"Wall" was falling, which we had built up around our "reservation". With this wall we had tried to avoid, that adults, teachers, parents, cops and missionaries could invade and occupy us but there was an undiscovered majority of people INSIDE of the commune, which nibbled at the inside of the WALL. What followed, was the coming-out of their wishes to adults more than to children (to heterosexual-adults alltogether) but these wishes they hid for many years, because they were living in fear to be "blamed" for this orientation by the few primarily children('s rights) oriented persons in the commune; but in 1989 they stopped "adulto taboo" and overrolled our place with this (worldwide dominating) orientation.

These heterosexual commune-"dissidents" met secretly and decided to putsch the old structure of the commune , to destroy and to end the commune. After they took all the money of the collective with them, they left the place and later they burned down our wonderful little commune-place in the mediterranean (not themselves probably, but by negligence in any case). [what is their defense? i'd like to hear it--ed]

Since that time a new generation of children!s friends tries to build up a new commune structure together with 2 "oldtimers" and two "old" ones which had only been visitors until then and some very young wo/men/ of "full" age. So we are again half of the earlier group, with half of the same rooms but double of the same rent for these little rooms than before. So, "involuntarily" we come closer to each otehr, that means, we can't hide so much from each other and it comes to more and better (?) dialogue than before (?we hope.) In Each night we "fight" for sleeping space because it's too narrow here now so again a stretched situation and nothing clear between us and solved...(...)

It's another book to give details.

It's very difficult and expensive to hold the contacts with all the people who write to us. they clamp their hopes to our project, which is almost choked with persons, who only show up themselves when they are in difficulties, but this cannot be a sufficient motivation, to join such a commune or to win contacts.

A commune decision should start before one's troubles, a decision in their "own" conscious + analytic process about love and society, i n d e p e n d e n t l y, to which results other people come and which consequences they take.

Just when our sympathizers live so far away, what do you think could make possible a more intensive contact? To be an information service for frustrated and hidden pedo-consumers? We don't agree and we don't want So, why you have not started with one's "own" place until now, why you have not collected friends until now, who could come together to build up a children-supporting place and fight back all defamations and prejudices of minors and their love-relationships????????????????????????

We are sorry to tell you that we are only interested to give our support and affection to people, who themselves live openly their POLITICS for/with kids, and this is not (only) a sexual question but of ALL daily things: organizing, publicity, renting rooms to meet, fighting for [tolerance(?)] of parents that kids can go and stay with us criticising the violence in our place even between children, coming away from religious-pedagogical "helping" syndrome, supporting the anti-school fights, etc. etc....

What on earth brought you to your one-pointed statements only of your sexual interests?????

You think it's okay to split yourselves into adult-professions and "private" interests in children?

You think money is o.k. to transport your interests and "buy" relations, directly and indirectly????

We do not! You think, as a children-lover you are not "obliged" to build up places where children can legally be and also where they can escape to, if they are harrassed and tortured because of their age or their sexual orientation only? And when children are beaten up or experience violence in another way? How do you react to these increasing problems?

[what if Americans built tree-houses for kids across country, covertly. and filled them with broad info that would help them think i n d e p e n d e n t l y--ed]

Don't say it's too hard to find friends, it's not. Start a campaign, to find friends! Together it will be possible, with a common cash-box it IS easier, to change persons and experiences even over long distance !

If you don't feel strong enough and "penetrant" enough to start such a place alone, come over and try to spend some months with us, to find out where your fears (and where ours) hang and how we handle and communicate, and argue with each other to win some self-confidence! Decide then, when you know more about us, whether you better change your "natioAnal-ity" and stay with us for longer or go back then and start your own project in your country! Sorry this is only advice, we can give you: Don't hesitate and begin!!

You argue in YOUR country it is not possible to start a child-right commune, they would edstroy it immediately? But do you think, they don't dare it here too? More than 100s of times they tried brutally and totally. But we survived. By making publicity!

[ATTENTION: these numbers and addresses may no longer be good; can anyone give us information whether this is true?]
Donation account: Spendenkonto: Nussbaum; PostgiroAmt D-85 Nbg. Kto. Nr. 2964 44-851 BLZ 760 100 85

If you are thinking about visiting the Indianner Kommune, it would be wise to prepare yourself for a mutually beneficial visit.
To write: P.O.Box 810361 D-85 Nurnberg 81 Germany (if you get no answer try again) or telephone: 0911-266786

BICYCLE TOUR 1992

At the beginning of august our summer-holiday-tour will start. From the beginning to the end, 6 weeks we will ride with children & tents along many lakes and along the sea. We have already made a test-tour in the witsuntide-holidays and it was quite wonderful. But full of stress: first contacts with nature and [first time] without parents for the kids, flat tires, one fall, some tears, and all in all very expensive. We had rented a bus for emergencies, when some kids were exhausted, or the luggage with food was too heavy. We put the things into the car and some could sleep in the bus when the nights were too wet.

In this summer we will have no car, but we will be quite dependent upon ourselves. There will be only bikes. Another problem is the homesickness. Most of the kids sometime will get homesick and we will have to support them to overcome or to interrupt the tour and bring them back if they want. But we know, from time to time it will be better and better and mother's arms will loosen more and more. (...)

To avoid to be exploitable objects for any tourists, we only agree with the taking part of people we don't know [from] the commune; if they at least organize to bring one other younger friend to the tour, too.

OUR ANSWER TO NATURE-DESTRUCTION: BOYCOTT OF THE WHOLE ADULTO-CULTURE! Bikes in--cars out. family structures out. single lifestyles-out! couple relationships? No, merci! Boycot of school, education and profession-carrers! Boycot of [consumption(?)], no relation by "blood" but by ideas and thoughts.

hey you! we want to get out of junkfactories and educationjail--but that works out only if you--even without this product--A C T I V A T E ! yourself preferably with us together

(zine is illustrated thru-out with photo-collage, artwork, a catalog that sells back issues of their zines, stickers, etc.)

"THE FACE OF ASMODIUS" press release by Indianner Kommune January 25, 1985, Nurnberg, West Germany (This article has been typed up from a bad copy, so please bear with us if not all is put together as it should be)

Ulli Reachke, from the Indiannerkommune in Nurnberg, has recieved the maximum sentence for alleged "child abduction" of 11-year-old Patrizia of Tubingen and for "bodily harm," supposedly incurred by her suffering parents. The penalties were one-year imprisonment and a fine of more than $500. The four defendants are also to pay the costs [of] the trial [which] lasted 8 days. (...)[don't have part of it]

Only one day after sentencing, on January 19, 1985, police renewed their attacks on our house. They had no search-warrants, apparently only verbal orders from the prosecutor's office in Nurnberg. As always they claimed "danger in delay" to (?)____(?) without us even knowing the runaway they were looking for.

These troubles highlight the media's baiting of our commune of runaways and their indifference to our demands for children's rights during all these years. The court action is comprehensible only if seen in the light of our policies advocating human rights for children. For we are against compulsory schooling, against all sorts of educative prisons, against the church, against motherhood, and we support self-determined sexuality for all people and the right of children and young people to leave home whenever they choose.

[can't make following out]_______-mands publicly to everybody, and to make them ultimately a legal reality. Certain adults, the assassins of personal convictions, the guardians of the inheritance of the nuclear family have constructed this recent legal action against our demands out of malicious insinuations and mendacious accusations. Their intention is to keep together, by force, families and all other natural child-rearing prisons so that children have to suffer them for eighteen long years.

Still, many children--about 50,000 each year--escape the mental and physical hell of their tormentors who still pretend to want only the best for children. But as it is not pleasant to admit publicly that they themselves are the real executive arm for this nation's child-hating laws, the tormentors turn the whole matter upside down: it is not the children, but they, the parents, who are suffering.

We who support children are called criminals, and they claim that we deceive children into believing that we do not mistreat them or entice them away from their parents, in an act of ideological kidnap. That we exist at all, that we have an emergency phoneline, is said to be part of our trickery.

Judge Stein called Ulli an egotistical offender placing his ideology before the well-being of children. The content of this "ideology" though is not spelled out: that the state has no right to support families and other places where children are compelled to live if these become just so many torture chambers for them. And just because we are pushing for a political solution for runaway children we are accused of putting our "own politics above Patrizia's interest."

Psychological crimes against children are ignored. And so the tormentors of children hush up their crimes as well as our view that, owing to them, countless children are persecuted and harrassed to death. The expensive and devious legal action against us and its high penalties are all part of this effort to shift the blame and to silence us.

Families and youth departments are permitted to inflict horrible physical and mental maltreatment upon children until they break. The recent legal proceedings only undderlined these attitudes by licensing Patrizia's family, with the help of the prosecutor's office, to deny and hush up what happened in their home.

A wealth of evidence was overruled during the proceedings; when Patrizia was unexpectedly interrogated we were denied our right to cross examine. Because we were a party to the action, our evidence just wasn't called for. Ever since Ulli's 13 1/2 month innocent confinement or remand in 1981, this has been the legal system's way of dealing with us. And after all that time in the confinement, Ulli was in the end acquitted.

Patrizia has still not been sent home by the youth department and that surely speaks for itself ___ but her suffering while she was at home is hushed up and scornfully denied.

The Tubingen prosecutors Firnkorn and Henn reacted to the testimony of maltreatment with total disregard, scornful grins and malicious and cynical interruptions. ____ an attitude even worse than at many rape trials [(perhaps because the good prosecutors are "parents" themselves and know about such "brat's" "whinings"?--ed)].

Just one example of the spirit of this legal action to protect the family when Ulli explained how Patrizia's teeth actually chattered with terror of her stepfather, Henn exclaimed: "Well, of course if you don't have any beating." [?] Firnkorn added that we condemn children to a life on the streets by not sending them to school. In fact, some children live with us and do attend school. On one occasion only has the youth department snatched a runaway living with us on truanting.

Actually Patrizia at first fled to somewhere else; only afterwards did she contact us, by telephone. She threatened to kill herself if anyone should call her parents, the youth department, or the police. Terrified, and still trying to protect herself from still more abuse and persecution when Ulli suggested that she send her parents some sign of life by letter, she gave a false address. It is clear enough, after all, what happens when children are asked to report themselves.

The whole point of her letter to tell her relatives not to worry was turned upside-down, so Ulli could be accused of having known, but concealed Patrizia's true whereabouts.

A legal device which attempts to punish the Indiannerkommune and the few Greens [(German political group)] who stand up on the side of the children, this latest action has actually supplied proof of the legal system's violence against us and countless children of this nation. It also provokes debate about the year-long campaign of harrassment against us, based on lies and distortions and seeking our destruction.

The people affected by this persecution--runaways from homes, psychiatric institutions and other educative prisons soon will have only malignant officials to rely on. People helping children will not be subject to blackmail by the threat of prison, the children themselves to exposure, surveillance, denunciation, broken will to live, and extradition back to their torturers. [(this last sentence doesn't make sense grammatically; it may be due to less than adequate translation abilities)]

The Tubingen court has, by its decision, driven all of Germany's fugitive children who can no longer trust conventional institutions into absolute despair, into the arms of highway rapists-- and into suicide.

In sum, we are condemned because we saved Patrizia from a brutal and dangerous life on the streets and did not hinder her from writing to her parents.

Ulli described to the court what happened to another girl, who made her way alone to Nurnberg: she was told that the commune was not for her, made drunk and sexually abused. He also related how Maria, a member of the commune, was murdered while hitchhiking alone, and that the swin of a killer had first cut the pattern of a cross into her back. He asked repeatedly what interest the prosecutor's office could possibly have in driving little girls who refuse intervention from conventional institutions onto the dangerous streets.

We could not let Patrizia become another victim; we took her in but our good intentions fell foul of the courts contemptuous hatred. The judge maintained the same attitude toward Patrizia's and other witnesses testimony about how she was maltreated before we found her, by ruling them nothing but untrue tales.

[can't make this out]_____________....the arguments with her stepfather. That he repeatedly hit her, even with objects, and threw things at her.

She was reliving these things in her dreams. She kept on saying: "I hate my father, he is horrible. He is rude. He is disgusting. I hate him. I want to be dead." She was deeply afraid of hearing his voice on the telephone. She was having nightmares, rolling about in bed; her sleep was deeply distruved every night and she would wake up dripping with sweat. She would often cry and call for help while asleep, dreaming of being persecuted. She would fall out of bed and sleep in a convulsive crouching position.

In talks about what she was thinking and why she was crying she constantly confirmed her terror of her father and the police, who would take her back to him. She was always waking up at night because, she said, she had forgotten to breath for fear that her father or the police might arrive to take her back. She would react with tantrums, stomach pains, diarrhoea and headache if anyone mentioned home, or made the proposal to go back home to her father. (...)

We will not shut up until you stop your professional attempts to destroy our refuge for persecuted children and and retract the court's malicious sentence.

The stepfather, a teacher, on whom it may depend whether or not his wife withdraws her complaint against us (which is still possible and, by German law, would end the court case can be reached at: [names and addresses deleted in my copy].

[Calls for an appeal, after being left $6000 in debt, with its bicycle shop business harmed by all the judicial harrassment] (...)

[goes on to denounce adult-centric culture and then begins the following critique:]

Hard rock, Punk, heavy metal aren't really any different; they have raped our sexual desires and put them on sale like merchandise in store windows. The youth industry has captured our bodies and minds and crushed our sexual urges. It sells them as books & theories and lectures and TV documents and devert[isements]. UP YOURS! (...)

No apologist of the ":peace movement" ever talks about [official] ritual terroising of children or [their] destruction of childhood. (...)

You call us "immature", "crazy", and "sick" just to keep us under control for as long as possible. We can learn more outside school. (...)

[I read somehwere that Ulli was also forced out of their Berlin space by a mob that was evidently hysterified by irresponsible media reporting of Patrizia's "kidnapping", etc. Perhaps it wasn't Patrizia herself, but another young person. Anyway, they've survived deep violation by a society intent on not seeking understanding...--ed]
==========================================================

A few words of caution for visitors and others contemplating the Indianner experience
i want to thank the one critic of the Indianner who got in contact with me and has engaged me in a long discussion about both of our experiences with the Indianner project. He pointed out the need to provide some kind of introduction to this group that could help people consider various important issues that come up when one is exploring radical ideas, projects, and communities.
It is one thing to talk about the ideas of a radical group and stand with such in solidarity, and another to actually visit the project in person, or help people think clearly about the various realities that go on in such projects and the people in them.

It should be known to people that radical activism, especially done in societies which fear anything "radical", has not often been the most "pleasant" experience. Being that all participants and visitors are imperfect products of their society, one can't help but to find much abrasion. We see that just in our most "normal" tries of organization--from student government to activist circles. Add intense amounts of stress from sources within and without (i.e. state and local pressure) and any project is bound to meet seemingly impossible hurdles.

Besides activists themselves being aware of such sure-to-appear hurdles, those visiting such projects as the Indianner, or those engaging themselves in thinking about various peoples' spoken experiences, ought to be aware of these issues in order to most fairly deal with the subject. For visitors, it would probably help to be aware of some sort of etiquette[link under construction] when visiting any community.

The problem of course with the Indianner, is that they serve a section of society--adolescents and younger people--that is often viewed as not being too oriented to the idea of thoughtfulness about others. At least this is the arbitrary projection made by the "adulto" society. Many of the Indianner's visitors, i think, are refugees (adults and kids) who are so caught up in their own very real and heavy problems that they cannot often easily go beyond their own realities as they perceive them. That's what i think was happening with the critic whose opinions appear below.

It is important to realize that, like any community (even within more traditional families with complete social acceptance), there are many many things contributing to instability. For "families" or organized projects like the Indianner that are being officially pressured to cease and desist, the stresses and problems are magnified many many times. So, it's vital to realize this situation.

Our Indianner critic wanted me to say that since this project is so unstable and downright confrontive to many visitors' previous notions of "normality", i should provide a disclaimer saying that to involve oneself would be as bad or worse than one's previous involvement with their volatile family or other living situation of which they are fleeing. But our critic misses the point of what entails any radical, on-the-cutting-edge activism like the Indianner Kommune's work.

Organizing for one's freedom and rights has never been an easy occupation. You may compare it with the seeming ease a refugee may find in existing institutional (state-accepted and funded) youth aid projects, but not see the even more insidious currents going on just below the surface of such "help" groups.

That children are allowed to come into professional atmospheres of "care" and get to remain "pleasantly" passive and unaware while their problems are sorted out "adequately" by practiced soothsayers, by no means secures or brings forth any measure of genuine aid or advocacy; in fact, we find that those purportedly "helped" by such "treatment" have much more to fight than any "unacceptable" independent self-help or resistence group.

The long history of adults' own dissent from and resistance of such "expert" (read: Orwellian) control should be a tell-tale indicator for any seasoned critical thinker.

Between the two models (state-backed and independent) we see, on the one hand, marked interest to control dissent via unimpeachable means (i.e. the value judgments of a state-servicing institution are forever "scientifically correct")and on the other, a marked interest to hold onto one's liberty-oriented principles.

The difference is that with the independent, even vilified group, there is real potential for change and increased understanding via a participant's committed rationality and empathy, while with the state-servicing group we find a rigid adherence to doing one's job "without hassle" from employers, the limits of funding restraints and what's viewed as "socially acceptable" at the moment (i.e. even now, young people are often coerced away from "leading homosexual lifestyles" even in mainstream help groups). Change may come from equal interaction with the independent group, but most often only top-down (after years of "patience" within bureaucracy) from the state-accepted group.

The Indianner Kommune (and other radical projects) should be thus viewed as a more open-ended space in which it is possible to more constructively interact towards genuine advocacy--provided one makes the time and can access the will and courage to make such an adventure outside their own knee-jerk "normality".

=================================================
CRITICAL DISCUSSION OF THE INDIANNER KOMMUNE, with TS and Chuck
(Two main parts included here)
note: the following two sites are being worked on, so that this will be more readable....

Well, it turns out that i have to put my response into two parts, due to my e-mail server's limitations!!!!eeeep.

>The saga continues!
> I still feel that the scales are tipped in
>such a way that far more harm than good comes from sexual relations
between
>adults and children.

What i'm trying to do is point out that the good that is done is
precisely what is being attacked and struck into the really
damaging confines of an arbitrary system of "justice".

As mind-sets stand now, even those relationships that both parties find
beautiful are "worse than murder".

While i myself, and others, have chosen not to engage in these
relationships/illegal sexual acts, most of those who are now being
attacked are the naive members of society who 'didn't know' that the
legal term "rape" applies to all intimate [consensual] touch with the underaged.
Young men and boys (who have relations with younger boys, and sometimes
with each other) are among these "predators" being unjustly victimized
by this 'arbitrary' system.

> But perhaps for the time being at least, we should keep
>this discussion to the Indiannerkomunne. One of the reasons I said I
felt they
>were more interested in Pedophilia (and children's rights being a
precursor to
>this) is because when I left them to ostensibly continue to fight for
>children's rights elsewhere, the only people they put me in contact
with were
>men running a pedophile information exchange!

Oh, you mean PIE in England? i would say that the Indianner's reasoning
might have been that this was the only group in England that they knew
of which would question the aggressive authoritarian nature of state
institutions and their "beneficial" ideologies about "taking care" of
runaways like yourself.

Or, maybe, in their thinking that you were a 'kid cop', they gave that
one as a false feed? If they think you're a cop, and you're showing
marked disagreement with their strategey, i can imagine that they might
do such things.

>
>I hadn't meant to link 'psycho terror' to 'intergenerational sex' - you
made
>that leap!

Really? Tell me how, since you're the one who said they in essence are
pedophiles, and they 'pulled the clothes off' that one 17 year old...If
it was a leap, it wasn't very big.

>The fact that [Ulli] was
>always talking about how he was going to be lobotomized in psychiatric
prison
>seemed to me a memorable trait! Sorry for the confusion!

A 'trait' about Ulli? Are you saying that by him always saying that that
is de-legitimizing to his character? i can imagine that if he knew
people who were in such a situation (as political activists or
whatever), or knew about the history of German psychiatry (especially in
the 1930s), or had been reading words published by the anti-psychiatry
movement, that he might be sincerely worried about this.

Yet, you're using such "crazy" "paranoia" against him?--"To explain"
him?

>
>You say -
>"I wonder what the context of his statement was. Can you remember a
>picture of what was happening? .... because anyone can take a quote and
then
>insert it in interesting places with interesting discrediting info. If
people
>aren't aware of such ways of coerced persuasion, then they can fall for
>the trick pretty easily."
>
>I am not out to 'trick' you! I am being very honest about my
experience. My
>short time with the Indiannerkommune and the events that unfolded
afterwards
>left me
>very shaken for a couple of years!

i've read that "to be shaken" doesn't mean anything in itself. Sometimes
people need the gifts that problems offer. In reading Anarchy magazine,
i recall how editor Jason McQuinn said that radical ideas and their actualities
are not 'comfortable'. They will have a way of shaking one up.

That you measure that being 'shaken up' with ideas you fear and don't
fully understand (or care to?) is negative and destructive just tells me
how un-committed you were/are to thinking critically of dominant
"Truth".

On "pedophilia" (the meaning of which is now dominated by the
psychiatrickery school), you make the assertion that because your own
experience and interpretation of events and ideas is negative, that all
the rest of such potential and now-occurring relations are bad. All that
is is bigotry, don't you see?

It's no different from the white man who hates and fears ALL blacks due
to experiences he's had (and interpreted) with blacks who may've treated
him bad.

> You may find this hard to understand, and
>you seem to attach little value to the fact that I was just 16 when I
went
>there (I left home when I was 15 and travelled around europe where I
got
>involved in squatting etc.

You'll find no conscious 'adult chauvanism' here. i come from an
ageist-wary perspective; that means that i don't judge peoples'
abilities or inabilities solely because of their age...thus i *don't
attach much value* to one's age.

This position also means that i don't hold up on a pedestal, anyone of
any certain age; i find that people reveal their beauty and abilities
via many more measures than simply age. i think that the Indianner
Kommune was interested in this kind of thinking--thus their challenge to
"adulto society" (adult-oriented/centric society).

> I left home because I wanted to change the world

Is that your cynical "adult" saying that? It sounds just like adults in
the mainstream today. They dismiss idealism by framing it within extreme
terms like that...

But no, i bet you left home because you felt persecuted and you wanted
to believe in hope for something better. But, you were unable to move,
for whatever important reason, much beyond the programming you'd been
born into, it seems to me.

>through anrachism etc.

Yet, in your quick (?) assertion that 'pedophilia' is 'bad', you seem to
not've really been committed to its principles...

>I did not come from a particularily priviledged home -
>a single parent working family.) (what's YOUR history?) .

i hail from middle class priviledge to a large extent; that means, in
this case, that the bread-winning parent grew up in poverty and wanted
his family to live better.
>
>You wrote - "i'm interested to learn exactly what was going on. Was
the 17
>year old screaming at Ulli, calling him a "child rapist" or
something--out in
>public? i can imagine that scene escalating to cans and bottles. If his
>"clothes were [being] pulled off" was this happening in the context
that
>there was a physical struggle between the two? You use "17-year-old"--
>but don't say whether he's a big guy, or one full of fight? You don't
>mention what led up to the issue. i'm not convinced without the whole
>story."
>
>>Do you really think I would go to the trouble of opening this
discussion with
>you if all I wanted to do was lie and make stuff up?

That's a good point!

> >Here's what happened:
>After travelling by van from Nurnburg to the Pyrennees in Spain with
the
>Kommune, (a mixed group of adults and kids - 2 six or seven year olds
whose
>mothers were in a psychiatric prison(need I reiterate my position on
this
>again?) a women in the group - Gilly? was looking after them, one of
the
>mothers wanted her daughter back,

So, it's acceptable for a mother to want her 'property' back? What did the
daughter want? Or is she *too young* to decide for herself?

i can't imagine any other "child rights" group, beyond the Indianner,
making such a radical challenge to parental property rights...and if it
is true that they 'kidnapped' the girl (as you insinuate), i would say
I would wonder about the WHOLE story.

All this sound to me like a teen (you) who thinks that "little kids"
(pre-teens) aren't allowed to have freedoms to make their own decisions.

>> the kommune was taking the two little kids
>to live in their house in Portugal - yes this was all as bizarre as it
sounds)

How bizarre is it in the context of their mother being in a psych ward?

i can see why it would sound 'bizarre' to the uninitiated, tho. Imagine this
image (let's use an anology!) that the so-called indigenous 'red savages' (popularly labeled 'fully evil' as they were
just 100 years ago, in the USA) have
'kidnapped' an innocent ragamuffin from her white settler (fully
innocent) family. You're told over and over, that they're going to 'scalp' the child, or at least
use her for some inhuman ritual...

That's why i make the claim that you are gloriously duped...but at least you are interested in
"understanding" this form of 'red savage'...? (from your set of
norms/values/truisms only, yes?)--how better to rationalize one's
indifference to a suffering minority than to "make an effort" to
"understand" and then retreat to the comfort of life amongst the "norm".

>>...anyway the idea was we were all supposed to run through this
'rainbow
>gathering' festival in Spain, tearing down the banners and being
destructive
>because the peace movement ignored the destruction of childhood...I
didn't
>want to do it. Around this time I decided I wanted to leave. When i
said I was
>leaving, this seventeen year old boy (and no he wasdn't a big tough
guy, he
>was a little wimp with thick glases - they also tore his glasses off
when they
>threw the bottles at him) stood up and said he was leaving too. He had
been in
>the group two years. His father was a priest who was ill . He felt his
>involvement with the group was contributing to his father's illness.
> When he
>wanted to leave the bottles etc got thrown , his clothes got ripped
off. He
>wsasn't fighting, he wasn't calling anyone a child rapist! In fact, he
started
>crying as he spoke because I guess he felt torn. This when Ulli started
>telling me how they sometimes had to resort to 'psychoterror'.

So you had no insight to Ulli's reasoning? (Was this Ulli doing this?
Who began the attack? Did young people of the same age or younger attack
this guy? You're not saying important details.) You have no idea why
Ulli (?) or others chose such a technique--and why Ulli went along with
it? It was just totally INSANE to you?

If so, i can imagine that being a real problem. Something to bring up
and have them talk about. Hey, i witnessed my share of problems too;
things i was taken aback about; but none were so heavy. In fact, the
acting 'leader' (Frans/Klaus) made it a point to ask the young people at
the place (who were always free to come and go as they wished, without
haranguing attack) about the confrontational methods they used when i
was there.

The younger kids (two) said that non-physical confrontation was Klaus'
/Frans' normal way. He did not attack physically, but verbally. That is,
he challenged/confronted those he disagreed with. i thought he
was going to attack a woman there once, and was ready to physically
intervene, but he didn't!

This was the style in which they worked when i was there. i found it
fascinating. (i did think that the kids ought to be given a bullhorn so
that they could have their voices heard over their adults.)

>>Although I was
>forbidden to keep a diary while I was there, when I left I wrote down
what
>happened. Ulli said to this boy, among other things, "oh so you want to
go
>live in the alternative disco in Berlin. Maybe you'll find a nice girl
to
>finally have sex with. A nice couple! Gilly's asshole is too old and
wrinkled
>for you. So and so's bosum is to large. ..."

Sure, not as 'polite' as your average professional therapist, eh? Pretty
uncomfortable, eh? Too much for me, too. But i think it still important
to recognize the needs/values i have VS. the possible needs/values of
others, from OTHER norms. And not everyone trusts in 'polite' discussion.

If it comes to actual
violence, that can be a problem--unless its consensual, such as in most
wrestling. If an unprepared person is set upon with physical
violence...that seems to me to be going over the deep end.

Then again, many urban gangs seem to work this way. You can't even leave them,
or face being murdered.

>>So I ended up leaving Spain with this boy, and another 15/ 16 year old
who had
>also decided to leave. we hitched together for a bit, then I hitched
the rest
>of the way on my own. I never recovered my rucksack full of clothes etc
>(materialistic? perhaps.) that I had left in Nurnburg because I was too
scared
>to go back. ....
>
>I later wrote an article for a UK Anarcho-feminist magaizine 'Feminaxe'
about
>young people's rights etc,which a woman from the Kommune contributed
to.

You wouldn't have her name would you? i met a woman when i was there,
and we became friends, but were stopped from being near each other
because of fears of us getting too close (and in their belief, such
relationships only caused trouble...tho, i can see why; you'd say it is
proof of cultism, i'd agree to an extent--but would seek to ask them
their rationalization for such a belief (and risk their confrontational
methods to seek to convince them of their error)...while you, at 16,
didn't feel capable of doing such things, and chose to escape (i did
that too, actually). But some bad-ass punker-type (the street-wise
bad-ass type) of age 12 (there was one there, actually) might choose to
stand his ground and fuck with the likes of Klaus/Frans, perhaps even
getting into a physical fight with him.

(Imagine a Palestinian refugee kid and what survival during war must do
to them. For one, they're no longer "like most kids" in privileged N.America)

This is an oft occurrence in punker circles, you know. It's true of
"blue collar" minorities, too. i remember that once when i got in a
fight with a dark-skinned friend that our friendship actually brought
more respect for both of us. Some people respond to that kind of thing,
while others (including myself, mostly) don't.

>>She
>came to the UK and tried to convince me to come back, then confronted
any
>member of the squatting community there demanding they justify their
politics
>and beliefs to her. Somewhere I have this article. Her bit started out
>something like : "SHWEINE!! ...." and then proceeded to attack everyone
she
>met in the UK. It was typical of the Indiannerkommune style. I think
they
>create their ostracization from other left / anarchist groups by being
>deliberately on the offensive. You probably disagree.

Actually, i can agree to that. It's the same as with Leftists and
anarchists 'creating' their ostracization from mainstream and state
power groups! Now, how could the Indianner *learn* such things???

Then again, let's look at it from another angle:
There really are people
being beaten up and murdered in today's prison systems and in the rest
of society as a whole. Many of those are "pedophiles". They are knifed,
shot down, their homes burned. They are set upon by actual
conspiracies between prison guards/cops/and hyped up prisoners. In the
US, they can be castrated formally by the state; if they survive prison
they are forced to register their home address with the police, whom
often must make such addresses public.--and in a hysterical society like
our Western ones, that equates to promoting vigilante violence. Also,
the treatment of these cases in arbitrary hysterifying terms is nothing
more than evil; especially when you realize how it is used over and over
again upon fully unprepared groups that happen to be
misunderstood/slated for vilification by suiciety.

That the Indianner sought to go on the offensive (much like the PLO or
other "terrorist" groups, minus the guns and bombs) sounds to me to be
quite appropriate given the very real violence handed down by the state
(and in turn, dismissed and carefully ignored by a strategically
challenged Left/anarchist community that can't/won't see past
conveniently comfortable bigoted belief systems).

>>You wrote (at different points through out the letter) - " Tell me, as
a teen,
>did you just go into their environment and proceed to tell them how
wrong/etc.
>they were? ... i don't know your original reasoning for visiting them.
i don't
>know if you went into their project with all kinds of "knowitall" ideas
that
>you couldn't/can't allow yourself to think critically of....For some
reason,
>they thought you were an infiltrator, i guess. i can see how they might
have
>thought that. But, perhaps you were only a thoughtless dupe who wanted
to
>"help".
>
>>No . I went there because their 'publicity' material I read suggested
to me
>that they were the living embodiment of my beliefs and values. When I
was
>there I hardly voiced any criticism because I was intimidated,
particularily
>by this guy 'Ulli'. I expected a group of predominantly young people
but
>found a group of hyper adults really controlling what happened.

That's interesting. i myself saw only one hyper adult.
The other adults (three) were quite passive.
In fact, i think at least two of them were as intimidated as you--or,
they had nowhere else to go...but, alas, i'm projecting; i never asked
them, actually. Might've merely been cultural or class differences.

> I went there
>expecting to learn and to meet other young people with similar
>values.

You mean values like being against 'pedophiles'? Were there no other
young people there? What about the 'little kids'? What's your take on/
about them and their rights/freedom, anyway? i'm curious...

>I had
>already been living communally and squatting etc, and was already
poverty
>stricken, so that stuff didn't shock me, it was the incredible negative
>energy, the psychological terrorizing ,etc. I thought I was part of who
they
>represented - disillusioned politicized youth.

Maybe they saw you that way, too, but perhaps not 'better' than them?
Then again, with that against "adult society" speak of theirs (remember,
not knowing German, this is my interpretation of all that it was).

Or you could look at it as this: At 16 you were already much like an
adult--at least in mind-set (as i see in your 'values' against those
adults who claim to seek consensual love with the young show--or your
fear--and mine--of physical confrontation methods); i can see how they
would look upon the youngest members of "childhood" as having a more
"pure" sight--since they're often not as programmed/socialized as older
youths.

>But if the Indianner kommune is
>only for the super-radical elite - the young people sophisticated enough
to
>grasp all of their critiques, into supporting pedophila ( a wierd
concept for
>a huge proportion of runaways who leave home because of sexual abuse!!
) ,

Now, whose statistics are you using here? Are you not quite susceptible
to the propaganda of professionals whom make their careers
off of such statistics?

BUT WAIT! i just remembered! Beyond the legal term of 'sexual abuse'
(which encompasses *all* illegal acts), i do remember earlier-published
books saying how runaways were by far and large running from physical
abuse within the family (a topic hardly discussed in the media, the talk
shows, and in the grant writing of therapeutricksters). As well, there
was talk about many running away because they wanted out from stifling,
smother-love lives of duty to parental authority units. They wanted/want
freedom.

And if it was only sexual, don't you think that many more would come
willingly into the arms of children's psychiatrick hospitals, et al?
Instead, they try (if you visit your local big city and ask them) to
remain free from authoritarian adult "supervision" at every chance.

Not too convincing? uh, oh well.

>resilient enough to cope with the personalities of the adults, prepared
to
>live on bread and radishes (the bulk of my diet while with them) , they
are
>destined to failure. Their anger seems less justified when you consider
they
>have set themselves a more than impossible task. I applaud them for
this in a
>way but....oh I don't know...

Wow! You actually applaud them in some way?!?

>
>Yes , there were other adults there. In fact I met a huge group as in
Spain it
>was a kind of 'gathering of the Indiannerkommune clan' so I met maybe
ten
>adults and ten non-adults (?!).

Were they all like Ulli? Did they seem to feel as though they could talk
freely? Did you ever witness their humanity?

>
>>You wrote - " Basically, what kind of freedom and support can the
Kommune
>actually do within a modern German society? "
>
>Exactly, but I think the IK's 'publicity' (including your website)
should
>include a disclaimer -
>"This commune will be just as stressful,
intimidating,
>manipulative, controlling, aggressive and downright full of miserable
people
>as anything you are dealing with at home or school - kids, don't
bother!!

Wellllll....it's the stuff of revolutionaries, i guess. But i like the
"disclaimer" idea itself. i do plan soon to make such a thing, tho i'll
try to word it more fairly. I will include our discussion, yes! It is
very important! And it might incite more discussion!

Well, my e-mail server won't allow me to write any more responses than
this.

(go to Part 2)

[anarchist of love]

SECOND PART:


SECOND PART OF DISCUSSION ON INDIANNER KOMMUNE BETWEEN TS AND CHUCK

>>It was interesting to read about your experience of being there - in
1972?

No, i was saying that they started in 1972. i was there in '92 or '93;
probably '92.
>How
>old were you?
i was an adult.

> I was there in 1987 - I think things had changed a lot.

Things have changed only (when i was there) to the extent that they no
longer seemed to partake in physical violent confrontation, tho i expect
they would if it was consensual.

> I don't
>know what's up[ with them now.

i haven't heard from them either. They may feel that i'm a 'traitor' to the
the cause, as Klaus/Frans said when i left. (i was harangued with
emotionalisms too)

>>
>You say what they've done ought to be 'honoured and respected'. I wish
I could
>agree, but my experience, and those of around five or six other people
I
>subsequently met in the 'european anarchist community'

Were those people in LGFM (of the UK)? Or how about the zine 'Minor Problems'? Did you ever
meet 'The Unicorn' of NYC?


>>is that their words and
>their actions are very different. While I believe their voice should be
heard,
>I don't feel they represent themselves very honestly. I don't honour or
>respect them.

i can see this. i guess what i'm saying is that i honor and respect them
for their guts to try to create a project, and stay committed to it for
so many years.

i'm not addressing their behavior. i actually challenge their behavior.
i wrote a letter in Anarchy magazine a few years ago attempting to speak
about that one. Like you, i think that they're filled with just "too
much" negative energy.

But of course, so was AIM and the Black Panthers. That's what can happen
when you're attempting to challenge the bigoted mind-set of society. It
can get to you in Bad ways. Plus, you also have the issue about informers and
provacateurs (read about COINTELPRO sometime if you don't know about
their tactics).

If they can identify these things, these real problems, and realize
what's going on--and work or play to deal with it constructively, then i
would support and honor them fully. But i didn't see them doing that.
They seemed too full of anger and non-understanding, no empathy!
...then again, i
don't know German, and often negatively project on others, as you're learning to
some extent.
>
>>You wrote - "That the inter-group relations, in the meantime, were less
than
>utopian should not surprise any veteran of idealistic projects in
action."
>
>The Indiannerkommune, in my understanding, is not aimed at 'veterans of
>idealistic projects in action' , but at inexperienced young people.

i would call for seeking to educate inexperienced young people. i'm
already engaged in this legal activity. People who care about them try
to help them undertake a "course of intellectual self-defense", so they
aren't so easily fooled by authoritarian cops, teachers, parents, and
all manner of propagandists. So they can think independently.

Of course, to do all of this justice, we'd have to have a society that
wanted kids to stop being ill-equipped. Right now all we have is a
society that wants to treat "children" in the same way it treated women
and blacks, etc. etc. (until they were able to sufficeintly organize and
stop such bigotry).

You might like reading an article (published by Time Magazine in 1972)
that i found. Check it out at:
"http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6904/Time72.html"

>> So the
>depressing environment they have created DOES come as a surprise to
many young
>people who go there!

Yes, not as nice as all the 'polite' adults who feed them candy-coated
Ritalin pills, or other neuroleptic drugs (with all kinds of side-effects).

Not as cheery as the brightly colored psychiatrick hospital prisons.

Of course, i think both of us agree that we need something between these
two extremes. That's why i am orienting myself more and more to creative
nonviolent/playful street theatre-type actions.

Like i did in Minneapolis. Went almost nude (except for funny face over
dreaded genitals) and raised hell with a bullhorn --doing ORGASM CRIES
in a technique of classic "Saul Alinsky-itsu"...See the link about it:

"http://www.demon.nl/freespirit/fpc/pages/olf/nonsilnt.html"
>
>>You wrote - "Then you have all of the strategically challenged persons,
>perhaps including yourself, who won't or haven't thought too deeply
about the
>"facts" spoon-fed them by those they've been taught to trust..."
>
>You continue to hold this position that because I don't share your
perspective
>, I haven't thought deeply or am still spoonfed the dominant ideology.
Why
>can't you respect my experience, knowledge and opinion?

i'll tell you why:
because you insist upon, for one, in taking your particular experience
of abuse and making a broad-brush-stroke across ALL illegal
intergenerational contacts as though they are ALL "more harm than good".

i call that bigotry, plain and simple. You can try to turn that around,
but i'll show you who are the ones who are being attacked in classic
bigoted forms. Of course, you can rationalize my challenge to you how
you wish!

Secondly, you're so prone, it seems, to judgment before you ask those
whom you judge what their perspective is. You *did* come into this whole
thing with pre-judgment about the Indianner project as well as the
belief that "pedophilia" is bad. You do tend to side with parents about
their property rights over children (while the girl being transported to
Spain is never asked what she thinks--by you, who was there!)

Thirdly, you don't even think beyond the confines of typical mainstream
thought, such as in the idea of what constitutes "adulthood" and
"childhood". Are you not aware of the politricks of these models?

This is all evidence, to me, of your being quite incapable (up to now)
of thinking or asking significant questions outside spoon-fed models of
belief and "Truth".

But you're not alone in this; i am also somewhat unaware of things. But
i am trying to keep my "door open" to an ever-progressing line of
critical thought. (actually, say those who're backed by State Power, i'm
really just a "clever" "monster" who will "say anything to get my mouth
on the penis of a boy, legally"....Well, is it not true? Puh-leeze.)
>
>>You wrote - "Ever seen "Malcolm X", the movie? Remember when the white
woman
>comes up to Malcolm, wanting to help? What did he say to her? How could
he
>tell what she was about?"
>
>Yeah , I saw it though I don't know if the Indiannerkommune would
affiliate
>with Spike Lee. But you see, to use this analogy, I wouldn't be the
white
>woman offering to help. I would be the lost black brother coming to
Malcolm
>seeking to join the struggle. As in, as a 16 year old runaway already
into
>anarchist ideas, I would have thought I was exactly who the
Indiannerkommune
>aimed to support!!!!

Good point. You got me there. Of course, you were "into" anarchist
ideas, but you weren't fully learned (perhaps like a black belt in
karate) in its "teachings". Take your proclivity with authoritarianism :
"My Truth is the Truth, and yours isn't!"
>
>>You wrote - "i guess you just can't see it from the eyes of an
oppressed
>political
>activist who is being attacked from all sides...."
>
>No I can't. I see it from the eyes of a young person disillusioned with
the
>world seeking support and communion with a group who I thought wanted
the
>involvement of people like myself.

That's powerful.

>>You wrote - "Where did you get the idea that their priorities are more
towards
>"protecting themselves from persecution for pedophilia"?
>
>Because this was the justification I was given for being told not to
write in
>my diary while I was there. My diary was really my only friend in the
world
>for a few years and it was clear to me that they had created a
situation for
>themselves where there politics of pedophilia cancelled out the
politics of
>really being able to offer anything to runaways.

My understanding, due to the statements of Frans/Klaus (one person, i
believe), was that it was to help stop the efforts of undercover, categorically
hostile, reporters. Tho, now that i look back on that one, i see it to be more
about manipulation and control, yes. (i look forward to what others
think, when i post this online)

>>You wrote - "You're really hooked on this one about their pedophile
side,
>ain't ya?
>Why? It's one thing to talk about it as one who is directly attacked by
>society, but quite another, i think, as one who is only affected by
today's
>hype and wants to "save the children" from the "evil pedo menace"...
>
>Speaking of black and white and grey areas - you want to put me in the
"save
>the children from the evil pedo menace" camp to lubricate your
argument!

Interesting choice of words.

>Yes,
>I am hooked on their pedophile side , because I don't ultimately
support the
>pro-pedophile argument (or manboy love or whatever is a more tasteful
term)
>and I feel their support for pedophilia basicly totally undermines a
lot of
>their other goals. My perspective on this does not come from the
hysterical
>mainstream, as I have said I have explored the argument, and more
importantly
>discussed it with many other people.

Well, i welcome you to discussing it with me. And, as well, with those
over at "Boy Chat".

>>The one person I know who at one point
>espoused having had a positive sexual experience with an adult as a
child (my
>boyfriend) later broke down and cried and said he was coerced into
something
>he was very confused about.

An interesting reaction. Why was he "hiding his 'secret' for so long?
He'd told you...was he worried that the man would come back and torture
bunny rabbits in front of him or something like that?

But seriously, haven't you noted the whole victim culture all around
you? If one insists on standing the wrong ground, they're given the peer
pressure treatment to conform. i've seen this personally. i've talked
with people who tell me they were "abused" only to find out that the
terminology they use totally conforms to the trickery of therapeutism.

That your boyfriend broke down and cried, is interesting to me very
much. Why did he need to cry? He didn't cry before when he tried to
"espouse" having a positive relationship. i'm really interested in how
you rationalize this (tho, i'm not standing with legions of
professionals ready to force you down to the therapeutrick Trinity).

>>I'm sure you will say he was a victim of
>mainstream ideology and rewrote his experience from this perspective,
but
>you'll have to take my word for it that he is a critical thinker
>fairly
>unhindered by 'spoonfed ideologies' etc.

Like i said, there's more at work here than spoon-fed ideology. There's
also the need to "fit in". To stand alone is not an easy thing, and
quite impossible for most people--unless they have a strong community to
fall back on.

Just take a look at the way society is. Can you talk honestly with your
parents, or do you just talk "about the weather"? Do new parents think
about *not circumsizing* their babies (okay, more so than in the 1950s,
anyway). How about living condtions: How many people do the things they
really want to do--and have always dreamed about doing *someday*? The
list can go on and on; just look around you.

>>So my main understanding of child -
>adult sex is based on the experiences of friends (including some of the
other
>kids I met at the IK) who were sexually abused by adults.

Oh yes, of course you're framing the entirety of their sexual
interaction with adults as "abuse"...

> Yes, there is a grey
>area, but its small enough to me to not want to put energy into
supporting
>this cause.

That's much too dangerous...what would the neighbors think? What would
the ill priest who's the father of that 17-year-old think?--you might
kill him with all the stress of worry!

>>And I'm sorry, if you don't agree with me that 'Meomix' is
>delusional thinking he can have a consenual sexual relationship with a
three
>year old girl, then this is a discussion destined to end in disaster!

Actually, Meomix didn't say that. You misread it. Did you go beyond that
assertion to look at what the person was saying? Sounds like you just
had a (bigoted) knee-jerk reaction. (i guess for the sake of this
discourse going on as long as it has, that's a plus for me; you probably
wouldn't have *even* engaged me, otherwise, eh?)

(i guess it's time for you to get out your clensing claws back in my
face, eh? Whatever; i'm just reacting to your amazing ways of
non-thought. Anything outside of your all-encompassing Truth cannot be
true.)
[
i'm not saying that, tho. i say that yes, some people are really
sexually abused/raped. But some aren't; and some even really enjoy
having fully genuine interactions with "adults" for lots of reasons. One
may be that they start to see that "adults" are just people like them
(No state power possessor likes to imagine what would happen if *too
much* of that "went around"--NAUGHTY NAUGHTY!!!)

Finally, tell me about your ignorance of Pacific Islanders, or even Arab
cultures. Do you know *what they do/did* with very small children? Ooooh,
dangerous ground, now....Then again, just what is your image of
'sex' and being 'sexual'? The law includes all "sexual touch", you know.
Didn't your sources point this out?

Anyway, all you're saying has been said before. For instance, in the
1940s it was said about those 'big black' (image of projected Violence enters
here) 'bucks' who wanted to 'rape'(image of black man 'on' white man's
female property, here) white women (image of child-like innocence and
floweryness enters here). The imagery is similar, don't you agree?

>>Anyway,
>I'm trying to keep this to the Indiannerkommune.
>
> I wrote "Please don't write off my perspective as conformist just
because I
>don't support Pedophila." You wrote - "i think i did this mostly
because i am
>kind of tired of dealing with people who haven't yet seen the truths
that i've
>seen. " "That you may not have found out about the truths i know of
doesn't
>mean you could not be from alternative/radical roots (and vegetation)
>yourself! "
>
>Do you really think your 'truths' are the only truths?

SWEET HOLY SHIT, where did you get that idea???? It does sound like an
echo i've heard time and again from those who just WON'T ALLOW
THEMSELVES to imagine that black men could genuinely love and care about
white women (in 1940s).

My truth is only part of the Elephant in Confucious' analogy. i'm
touching the freedom-loving gaze of the wild elephant being who's just
been freed from the irons of captivity. You, i guess, are touching the
manure droppings...or, perhaps you are thinking: 'holy shit, the
elephant is LOOSE, now he'll go around STOMPING and KILLING...'We've got
to hurry and put his chain back on!!!'

Or do you have a better one? You want to PROTECT the poor vulnerable
elephant from the danger of living in the wild. Make sure that he isn't
damaged by the potential claws of the leopard...

>>I could equally say I
>am tired of dealing with pedophiles who haven't seen the truths re.
sexual
>abuse of children that I have seen! (your cue to call me a spoonfed etc
etc)

>>You wrote - "Now imagine if i had to deal with as much bullshit that
those
>who've remained in the Indianner project have dealt with; i might be
just as
>assinine and unforgiving, and "p

{Just got a whole swath of text taken out by an unknown entity. A volunteer on this website, or what??}


>>You wrote - "Let's compare all this with the likes of the American
Indian
>Movement. Let's say you're an Indian and you decided to join up with
them
>because
>of the leaflets they'd passed out about making a free nation of
Indians,
>etc. It would be pretty, it would motivate you to want to join up. But
>then you go, maybe when you're 15, and seek to join up with them...and
>then you see all these guys getting drunk and treating women like shit,
>and fighting. So your first knee-jerk reaction is that, jeese, 'these
>Indians are way too fucked up'." (But you can't for the life of you see what the colonization
of their lands, etc. has done to them!)

>Yes, and perhaps I would be right, and choose to point out the fact
that the
>American Indian Movement's behaviour contradicted their ideals!
> Which is what
>I did with the Indiannerkommune, and got so attacked for. To me, ends
do not
>justify means.

That's a good one. I'm just saying that sometimes it's crucial to investigate the
why's and contexts of people's symptoms!

>>You wrote - "i agree that the Indianner may've been "biting off more
than they
>can
>chew"...they tried/are trying to make vast fundamental changes, or at
>least make it seem that way (in not an always destructive or shady
way),
>without the resources, and during times of heavy attack from all sides.
>You're getting me thinking along the lines i was hoping a more vital
>critique might get into."
>
>Thanks for taking the credit for what I've been saying all along!

Actually, on one hand this is getting more into a vital critique--simply
put, the scrutiny of the mind-set going on at the Indianner--but on the
other, you're still a "stick in the mud" about what i think are
peripheral topics, such as the adult-child love issue.

Also, you've been challenging the Indianner without, what i see as a
more responsible orientation. If i haven't said it enough above, i'll
probably not get thru.
>
>> You wrote -" i've been on the defensive. i really thought you were a
>professional
>game player trolling for info until exposing yourself as one of those
>pro crusaders who's out to spread irrationality at every chance
possible".
>
>So my credentials pass with you? Now show me your credentials to prove
you're
>not just some old guy into young boys,willing to use ideas of
liberation to
>get your hands on them? (yes I'm being provocative, turning your
tactics back
>on you)

Who's provacative, again? For standing where i am (actually i'm sitting
right now) i get to realize that most people, if they knew *what i am*
would rather just "off" me, than try to understand.

For the position that i hold, my name has been put up online by blinded
professional bigots who want to give me shit any way they can.

For the views i espouse, i get to be the subject of multiple government
"investigations" (including intimidation techniques like mail opening,
phone surveillance, e-mail bombs, etc. etc.) i get to bank on the truth
that if they so desire, they can set me up like they did a friend of
mine (who was alleged to have consensual sex with a 14 year old),
a principle boylove activist; when he was put in jail
for two days, the guards incited prisoners to beat him up; he was so
afraid of being killed, that after he got out he tried to run. He had
run successfully for 10 years before they caught him again. There's a
book that mentions his ordeal, you might find it at your local college
library/interloan service:

"The Poison River" by Steve Raymond

>>Yes, I know Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics (COYOTE), (A prostitute's
rights' group started by an ex-LAPD cop). I've been in the sex
industry on
>and off since I was 17, in Europe and in NYC. Let's save the sex
industry
>discussion, this is already taking two hours!
>
>>Re. my art, I mainly make experimental films. I am considering a
project based
>on 'cults'. I would like to know more about YOU before I give you any
more
>personal info - I feel this has been a bit one sided.

Okay. To reiterate: i told you my name, and told you a film i was in.
You can imagine what age i am when you see the film. i'm an adult. i was
at the Indianner Kommune in 1992 (i think it was). Stayed there 5
nights; wanted to stay at least 7 days but i really had to get out of
there! The fleas were the biggest thing. Another part was my not knowing
any German, and the constant misunderstandings i had with Klaus/Frans (i
believe one person). Another thing was my analysis of their non-scrutiny
of the level of stress that they daily/hourly dealt with...in my opinion
not constructively. (but i could be wrong)

What else?

>>I will write a critique of the IK for you, give me a bit of time.

i look forward to it. For now, i'll just post our discussion on the
website.

>>
>I am learning many interesting things from this discussion and I
appreciate
>your genuine will to discuss. We both seem equally frustrated with each
>other's perspectives.

Thanks for saying that. At least you're not sticking with what most
people stick with, saying that i've *just got to be mentally 'ill'
somehow!* (and to fire that metaphorical missile, interestingly, is to be able to
comfortably dismiss another's suffering and courageous speak...)
>
>Chuck (who's Jerome?)

Jerome is a nik i used when i first got online. Since i'm OUT on the Net
now, it serves no real purpose. It's hard to change, tho.

>> I assume you will go back to thinking I'm a
>'professional game player trolling for info...' if I don't give you my
real
>name, but I feel more free to have this discussion with you remaining,
for the
>time being, anonymous.

Actually, i don't anymore think of you as a professional game-player.
Maybe a non-professional game-player...

That you wish to remain anonymous is insightful for me. Is it for you?
You can see it takes courage (as foolish as every person who chose to
stand up, in dangerous times, for what they believed) to go against the
flow. i'm glad you are noticing this!

>> It's a complicated world. You'll just have to trust me.

Trust you? i'm no longer so easily duped into such things. i can trust
in some of the emotions you're emitting into your words. But, i suspect
you don't wish to get into this one...just too much more thought...the
SAGA needs to end for today, eh?

Well, to the hope humans often have of getting along with each other...i
never said i was perfect/neither are you. Shall we continue?

[HumanBeing]

I contacted an Indianerkommune Forum admin a few years ago and he was quite insistent that I drop out of my studies and move to his commune in Germany from my country to work on his communal library, I blocked him because of that because it seemed like a cult rather than a MAP/YouthLib organization