THE MAP MOVEMENT IS OUT OF TIME

[Anonymous_Lover]

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[Scorchingwilde]

I've been so busy lately but you hit the nail on the head in regards to a lot of what I've been thinking about the past couple days. Us leftist MAPs are literally being conflated with the ultra-elite capitalist genocidal warmongers and all I can do is hope that humanity, and maybe me and my loved ones manage to survive the next fucking decade thanks to circumstantial privileges that give us an advantage on trying to survivethis nightmare. Hearing that the "Epstein war" line has made its way into Iranian rhetoric is really fucking depressing too, but thank you for sharing so much so I don't feel absolutely alone in how I feel about everything going on right now.

[Anonymous_Lover]

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[Jim Burton]

PCMA (with joining instructions below - are these still effective?)

https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/PCMA

[CantChainTheSpirit]

I'll put my two cents in.

I don't like to use terms such as liberals or conservatives, left or right. I don't see our situation as a political situation, it's a distraction, a red herring, it removes our focus on real issues and divides the community. Left and right, neither is openly pro-map. No party is, no political group is, our situation isn't going to be improved by either side. I hate terms like woke or liberals, they're lazy terms invented to antagonize people while solving nothing.

To the original point, I'm not as fatalistic but I do like the points raised because they are important.

I don't think we're out of time because there is no time limit. Change can take a year, 10 years a hundred years.

1. Is this the start of WW3 and a new world order? I doubt it. Maybe it is, or maybe it's a TV celebrity and influencer given his dream platform making the most of it for fame and attention. Presidents, prime ministers, dictators, monarchs come and go, societies and their people last a lot longer. Since leaving social media 9 months ago and adopting a policy of avoiding the usual news stories, instead focusing on family and friends and local news, I've found that my life is much more balanced and I'm no longer suckered into believing all the garbage online. Trump is an old man who loves attention, the Middle East has conflict and I've never known a time when there was conflict to one degree or another, the markets are down then back up, shipping lanes are closed yet again, politicians are slinging mud at each other still. I would advise to not get swept along by all the news stories and political fighting since only around 5% of it is true, the rest is to trigger people which it's good at.

2. Our situation can change quickly or slowly. The current hysteria about maps doesn't have to endure. We've been a convenient soft target for a long time but with change in the world, new targets can spring up quickly, new groups spring up, new arguments, new politics. We have presidents and prince's being targeted in the media and we have normal non-maps being branded maps for the most random of reasons. Take a photo of your kid in a school play or film them in public and someone is out to brand you a pedophile.

3. But I do agree that we're not really that methodical in our approach. If we want to bring about change we have to be honest with ourselves about why efforts have failed in the past and really push forward either with many small unrelated initiatives or an organised joined up initiative.

Is adopting the LGBTQ+ model the right approach? I don't know. There is an assumption that because this set of strategies worked for them, then the same strategies would work for us. That is a leap that might be wrong. They may work, or maybe we should be taking an entirely different approach.

We need to stay calm and focused and be strategic, the worse thing we can do it panic or lose hope or be defeatist or turn to a blame game. If you're right that the world is about to change dramatically then that could be a good thing, it could be the catalyst that makes a real difference in our favour. But I don't think we can rely on that, we need to really rationalise our way through this which I'll write about separately.

[zarkle]

@Anonymous_Lover

The 90s and 2000s had just as much pedo hatred. The only difference was society was much more isolated and not communicating on social media. Once humans started mass communicating on social media they all discussed their shared common hatred of pedos allowing hate to spread and go viral with social medias amplification. We failed to enter the LGBT movement once again for refusing to acknowledge parental instincts to protect children are the real barrier standing in our way. LGBT didn't have that problem of triggering parental instincts. We do. One thing I'll add is that before 9/11 humans were more lax and possibly more sexually libertine due to society not feeling threatened. 9/11 only made society more tense and things much worse. The higher qualify of life the more sexually libertine humans become

Also I see you using terms like proletariat and bourgeoisie. So Obviously you are not even trying to hide your Marxist roots. Look dude, I am no fan of the very rich 1% or Elon Musk but I am politely fed up with how Marxist think. They divide the world into two categories and view it as an epic battle between side 1 and side 2. Then make further subcategories about how intersecting classes interact like the petite bourgeoisie, the family unit, the poorer proletariat and the above average proletariat. Which inspired the class analysis of Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, and Feminist theory. I'm not saying that it is wrong to do a class analysis and show skepticism of the rich but I am very skeptical of the claim that anti pedophilia is due to the "western patriarchical society" I argue it ties directly into animal protection instincts and the same neurocircuits wild animals use to defend their young being repurposed to attack us.


So here's the points I'm making other then my trademark talk about evolutionary psychology

1) Society was more isolated before social media, its possible if social media was around in the 70s then anti pedo hysteria would have existed then
2) Your use of Marxist terms like proliteriat and bourgeoisie draw skepticism in me
3) I tend to agree if we had started in 2000 with very good strategies we would have been more liberated now

>There isn't going to be a comfy Euro welfare state in the future, as overrated as that is, there isn't even going to be democracy, there's going to be fascism and police-state/military rule enforced at gunpoint with the pretense of wartime and emergency powers.

Regarding this part I think fascism has its roots in evolutionary behavior of alpha males seeking power and control, as well as of course parental instincts to protect children. Look into Haidt's Moral Foundation Theory on the topic of Sanctity vs Degradation, Loyalty vs Betrayal, and Authority vs Subversion and how it relates to authoritarian Governments, and as for me personally I am skeptical of both welfare states and authoritarian right wing states.

>The average liberal is now on the same level as a Qtard from 2017

I am a liberal by your definition (free markets, limited government, individual rights) I believe in those things. But I spend an enormous amount of time making fun of qanon. You can find all my post of tying qanon to evolutionary child protection instincts, and post of me mocking dumb normies for saying Epstein eats kids. I am an outspoken critique of qanon hysteria and I will throw anyone under the bus dumb enough to believe in qanon even if they share my beliefs in liberal (libertarian) values.


The real problem with western liberalism is that it hasn't matured and religion and primitive emotions like disgust are holding it back. Western Liberalism does have the potential to liberate child lovers.

[Rakuraku]

I've been so busy lately but you hit the nail on the head in regards to a lot of what I've been thinking about the past couple days. Us leftist MAPs are literally being conflated with the ultra-elite capitalist genocidal warmongers and all I can do is hope that humanity, and maybe me and my loved ones manage to survive the next fucking decade thanks to circumstantial privileges that give us an advantage on trying to survivethis nightmare. Hearing that the "Epstein war" line has made its way into Iranian rhetoric is really fucking depressing too, but thank you for sharing so much so I don't feel absolutely alone in how I feel about everything going on right now.

While its easy to assert this, too easy given how valuable each MAP activist is given our small numbers and what's at stake, we're beginning to hit the point where we have to organize and fight or die. This is not a call for needless effort and risk expenditure, or "rah! rah! organize!" cheerleading as its own end. Suffice it to say, as anyone could probably tell by the post, I have deep criticisms of the way the movement has been and the direction its been going. Sure, to use an old 60s leftist line "a single spark can start a prairie fire" in the right situation it may not be necessary that we all agree or are even mostly on the same page to breakthrough. To indulge this possibility is a type of magical thinking that we can no longer afford, in my view. I even made the point on pedi a few years ago that what most MAPs need is not more Foucault or queer theory readings but to sit down with a 1960s union field organizer's manual. At this point, even if we all held and agreed to disagree, the present state of the movement and the moment is proving that good organization or unity between groups is not enough to offset bad strategy and ideas.

While I've always kept a somewhat open door in terms of willingness to negotiate with other leaders and work with other leaders in the movement it appears that the differences have been too large to bridge.

The situation isn't hopeless but provisions must be made to rise to the occasion. We need to protect ourselves, survival instinct is good, but the best defense is a good offense. One of the reasons MAPs keep losing is they are too nice and too patient, the enemy is always attacking us, so is it really a surprise we've been losing ground continually when we mainly defend and counter-attack or even strike first in their weak point. I'm an advocate of a political strategy I like to call konfrontasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia ... frontation) meaning I do favor a more aggressive strategy against the enemy than MAPs have try. Sukarno invaded Malaysia because he viewed it as a British colonial puppet state, in a similar way, we do need to be aggressive and even hit first where we can. But I don't favor terrorism or rash actions that could get people harmed needlessly that would be a tremendous misconception and really only doing the feds job for them in many ways. We need soldiers, not martyrs. We have plenty of martyrs in languishing in prison, whether they consider themselves MAPs or not. Its hard, no one is truly safe right now, but the hardest part is being afraid but choosing to do it anyways.

Anyways, if this post spoke to you, you should consider joining PCMA. Its not strictly speaking a leftist group, I am a Marxist *but* I have too much experience with people who want to put their own favored political project above the MAP cause to say "yes, this has to be a leftist group" at the moment. I'm still formulating a doctrine and ideology for people to follow, we need a specific MAP doctrine and MAP politics not to be tailing the antis in the center (the worst), the right or the left. We can still make progress because nearly anything can happen in the present moment but we need to be making provisions for survival at the very least. I don't say we go underground and then fight but at the very least we try to continue to fight but also build the bunkers we need for shelter if it becomes truly impossible. They are counting on you to turning inwards and your compliance to a fair extent. Feel free to ask me any questions.

I would be interested in joining. How would one go about that, or is that something I should look up on my own? I'm not sure if I would call myself a Marxist but I'm sympathetic as a libertarian communist. There is a part of me that wants to directly propagandize for map views. I feel like much of the discourses that surround hatred of trans people for wanting to help dysphoric kids are essentially repackaged from the panics about gay men being into lonely boys

[Rakuraku]

@Anonymous_Lover

The 90s and 2000s had just as much pedo hatred. The only difference was society was much more isolated and not communicating on social media. Once humans started mass communicating on social media they all discussed their shared common hatred of pedos allowing hate to spread and go viral with social medias amplification. We failed to enter the LGBT movement once again for refusing to acknowledge parental instincts to protect children are the real barrier standing in our way. LGBT didn't have that problem of triggering parental instincts. We do. One thing I'll add is that before 9/11 humans were more lax and possibly more sexually libertine due to society not feeling threatened. 9/11 only made society more tense and things much worse. The higher qualify of life the more sexually libertine humans become

Also I see you using terms like proletariat and bourgeoisie. So Obviously you are not even trying to hide your Marxist roots. Look dude, I am no fan of the very rich 1% or Elon Musk but I am politely fed up with how Marxist think. They divide the world into two categories and view it as an epic battle between side 1 and side 2. Then make further subcategories about how intersecting classes interact like the petite bourgeoisie, the family unit, the poorer proletariat and the above average proletariat. Which inspired the class analysis of Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, and Feminist theory. I'm not saying that it is wrong to do a class analysis and show skepticism of the rich but I am very skeptical of the claim that anti pedophilia is due to the "western patriarchical society" I argue it ties directly into animal protection instincts and the same neurocircuits wild animals use to defend their young being repurposed to attack us.


So here's the points I'm making other then my trademark talk about evolutionary psychology

1) Society was more isolated before social media, its possible if social media was around in the 70s then anti pedo hysteria would have existed then
2) Your use of Marxist terms like proliteriat and bourgeoisie draw skepticism in me
3) I tend to agree if we had started in 2000 with very good strategies we would have been more liberated now

>There isn't going to be a comfy Euro welfare state in the future, as overrated as that is, there isn't even going to be democracy, there's going to be fascism and police-state/military rule enforced at gunpoint with the pretense of wartime and emergency powers.

Regarding this part I think fascism has its roots in evolutionary behavior of alpha males seeking power and control, as well as of course parental instincts to protect children. Look into Haidt's Moral Foundation Theory on the topic of Sanctity vs Degradation, Loyalty vs Betrayal, and Authority vs Subversion and how it relates to authoritarian Governments, and as for me personally I am skeptical of both welfare states and authoritarian right wing states.

>The average liberal is now on the same level as a Qtard from 2017

I am a liberal by your definition (free markets, limited government, individual rights) I believe in those things. But I spend an enormous amount of time making fun of qanon. You can find all my post of tying qanon to evolutionary child protection instincts, and post of me mocking dumb normies for saying Epstein eats kids. I am an outspoken critique of qanon hysteria and I will throw anyone under the bus dumb enough to believe in qanon even if they share my beliefs in liberal (libertarian) values.


The real problem with western liberalism is that it hasn't matured and religion and primitive emotions like disgust are holding it back. Western Liberalism does have the potential to liberate child lovers.

Have you ever read Marx and not just read about him? Genuinely

[HumanBeing]

Nothing is "out of time" the only reason why we haven't win yet is that the community sucks right now, if we had a supportive and strong community we will win in a matter of 5-10 years.

Same applies to other communities as it was the Jews in 1930s-40s, they accepted their "fate" instead of fighting and the natural consequence of it was the death and imprisonment of millions of Jews.

[Learning to undeny]

[...]
The liberal establishment that you so earnestly appeal to? That you get on your knees, plead, and genuflect before? It's a corpse. And democracy in the West is a dead man walking. [...]

Let's be honest about what's happening with Iran, it is the start of World War III. It is also a declaration by the American oligarchy that bourgeois democracy is over, and many leaders in Europe and US-aligned Asia are dancing to this tune, leaping for joy and clicking their heels like a happy-go lucky minstrel caricature from a racist early 20th century film, shucking and jiving for their master: Donald Trump and US imperialism. This war isn't going to magically stop, nor will casualties be light, and economic catastrophe will be enormous as 20% of the world's oil flows through the straight of hormuz and much of its natural gas, a lot of the world's fetilizer also comes in through the ME so enjoy even higher food prices than would otherwise be caused by rising energy costs. [...] Essentially, everything has been set up so the next recession will be in all likelihood be not just a depression but a new great depression.

[...] There isn't going to be a comfy Euro welfare state in the future, as overrated as that is, there isn't even going to be democracy, there's going to be fascism and police-state/military rule enforced at gunpoint with the pretense of wartime and emergency powers. Because, Europe generally lags America in everything, this might not be apparent to some of you now but the American ruling class has made that choice already and much of the world will follow.

[...]

As for the broader point, if you can't see the disaster overtaking this world at this point, I truly don't know how to help you. We haven't had a Great Depression or Gavrilo Princip moment and WW3 is already starting. Truly, this should have been obvious to leadership in this movement during the Russia-Ukraine war but the warnings I and others made about this were ignored. All indications show these wars are being waged, and will be waged with more disregard for human life and civilian casualties then wars we've seen in the past 80 years. Just look at the Gaza genocide, or the US adopting the Israeli strategy of blowing up schools (deaths of young girls exceed 100+) or starving Cuba if you doubt it.

I agree with your short-to-medium-term pessimist outlook.

Isn't it kinda obvious that this merits a rethink in MAP strategy and organization? People aren't going to be thinking about MAPs, good or bad, when this thing gets REALLY bloody and costly, they are going to be thinking about safety and survival.

That doesn't sound like a bad thing for MAPs, is it? It means we could make discreet communities without raising alarms. Also ourselves would be thinking more about survival than about minor-attraction, by the way. So perhaps it wouldn't be an age of triumphal activism but it would be quiet at least.

MAPs should come together across borders to oppose this war because it's bad for our interests and we have no stake in this system -- though some of you seem to think otherwise.

Not only MAPs but everyone should oppose this war. I don't quite see what strategy you're suggesting for us.

The average liberal is now on the same level as a Qtard from 2017. Prigozhin said something very true, "it's okay to have faith in God but he's not going to win the war for you." The average MAP in this sphere essentially is praying for God to win the war. But instead of Yahweh, this God is liberalism and unlike Yahweh it's not even clear this God can even be pleased even if one "does everything right" nor is it especially forgiving God, to the extent it even still exists.

I'd say it's just pragmatism. I used to think that integrating into liberal society would be nice, not because it's perfect but because I have the "there is no alternative" lemma ingrained in my mind. But now that liberalism has fallen apart, I suppose it's pointless to act as if it were still a thing. Actually, we might begin creating truly radical movements again (society at large, not particularly MAPs). If there's something good coming from the demolition of our world, it's that.

The first step here is admitting there's a problem. The uncalled for hopium and the simping for liberalism and the Western liberal establishment are a problem. The tendency towards capitulation, pacifism, moderation, respectability-chasing, optics-cucking, and playing towards the good will of the public, which has been trained to be vociferous antis and bigots, and are in the vast majority, *is* a problem. There's no point in playing the moderate when there's no one even at the table, moderates are elevated when the establishment wants to sideline actual radicals, they almost never achieve anything major outside that context. We live in radical times, without radical perspective and discipline, nothing will be won. And if we're going to win there needs to be a plan, since they are cracking down on the entire clearnet, all over the world. Again, the LGBT movement in Germany did not survive and only re-emerged in the mainstream because of wins elsewhere in the West. We may lose regardless of what we do. We WILL lose if we maintain the current course.

Interesting takes.