Views sought re UK policing of online CSAM

[AJTR]

Thanks very much for sharing this story. It certainly supports a lot I have heard from people caught up in the online policing drive, not least in the damage done to families.
Can I ask for a little more detail - what the end result of the case was, and why the police initially targeted you? I know that some English police forces are now using "cease and desist" letters in first-time cases involving such low category material.
Do PM me if that's better.
Alex R

I have some experience and views on this, having gone through the legal system.

In my case, I was charged with possessing cp since within our online photo albums there were several photos of a girl in what I'm told is a suggestive pose. So not naked, just in a pose playing a computer game with a friend but the way she was standing was considered erotic. She wasn't looking at the camera, wasn't posing, was playing a computer game but it was felt that the photo had an erotic look.

The result was a raid on the home, all computers taken including my kids school computers, phones and tablets. I had to move out and couldn't see my kids without supervision while the case went on. That case went on for years, that's years of my wife being forced to be a single parent in effect and my kids really suffering from the lack of having both parents there. I was powerless until a time limit was up when I was able to get a judge to intercede because the whole thing was nonsense.

My kids now have a dim view of the police and social services, they had social services and police showing up at school which led to problems at school and with their friends. There were just so many problems that came from all of this that really harmed the whole family, especially our kids. But we're a strong family and pulled through it.

But throughout the process, my wife didn't feel listened to. She was being lectured and pressured but she felt she couldn't speak out, couldn't express herself, couldn't speak her mind because the system didn't want to know. It was a mechanical process that she and the kids were put through. The kids were open and talked to social services and the police but they felt powerless as well.

In the end, the whole family was being punished and mistreated by a system that is cold and indifferent.

Look, I get it, there will be real serious cases that have to be dealt with. The problem is the system doesn't differentiate, it's a sledgehammer that will break people and families with cold indifference. It's worth breaking 10 homes if it captures 2 that are genuine problems, that seems to be the attitude.

Do the ends justify the means? From my perspective I'd say no because it should be possible to be more nuanced and tackle real problem situations without all the collateral damage.

[PorcelainLark]

I think it's downstream from tabloid sensationalism, and there is no political will from the public for more humane treatment of pedophiles. Given a choice, they would rather have harsher treatments. The lynch mob is too self-righteous and bloodthirsty to self-reflect. The public are too bigoted to treat MAPs fairly; at this point, change has to come from the top down, if it occurs at all. Imagine if the UK held a referendum on the death penalty today, do you think people would be willing to abolish it?

[The dude]

I am not British, so I cannot have a valid opinion on the British police, but just one avenue to think about: Could there be a connection between the UK policing on CSAM and fictional material and the policing of so called "hate speech", and "undesirable" online behaviour in general, by the Labour?

And could it be connected to Keir Starmer's cabinet compensating for Starmer's own failure to prosecute actual rape cases of teenagers (the so called "grooming gangs") when he was the chief prosecutor?

[Artaxerxes II]

I am not British, so I cannot have a valid opinion on the British police, but just one avenue to think about: Could there be a connection between the UK policing on CSAM and fictional material and the policing of so called "hate speech", and "undesirable" online behaviour in general, by the Labour?

And could it be connected to Keir Starmer's cabinet compensating for Starmer's own failure to prosecute actual rape cases of teenagers (the so called "grooming gangs") when he was the chief prosecutor?

Maybe, but then again we are seeing the same kind of over-policing of online content across the boards, even in America where the 1st amendment exists. So I don't think it's a trend specific to Britain, as much as being a trend that is occurring country-wide. I mean look at France and Belgium, the former now requiring age IDs for porn, while the latter has banned access to archive.org. Likewise, Texas made anti-CP laws more stringent just last year, and a few years ago Italy banned fictional CP as well. No matter how you look at it, it's clear that western governments are more interested in online surveillance over more pertinent issues (e.g., stagnant wages with inflating profits, rise in living costs, the current energy and food hikes due to Trump's latest war, etc...). And this crosses the political divides, even that restrictions on CP in Italy and America have occurred under nominally right-wing incumbents.

[The dude]

I am not British, so I cannot have a valid opinion on the British police, but just one avenue to think about: Could there be a connection between the UK policing on CSAM and fictional material and the policing of so called "hate speech", and "undesirable" online behaviour in general, by the Labour?

And could it be connected to Keir Starmer's cabinet compensating for Starmer's own failure to prosecute actual rape cases of teenagers (the so called "grooming gangs") when he was the chief prosecutor?

Maybe, but then again we are seeing the same kind of over-policing of online content across the boards, even in America where the 1st amendment exists. So I don't think it's a trend specific to Britain, as much as being a trend that is occurring country-wide. I mean look at France and Belgium, the former now requiring age IDs for porn, while the latter has banned access to archive.org. Likewise, Texas made anti-CP laws more stringent just last year, and a few years ago Italy banned fictional CP as well. No matter how you look at it, it's clear that western governments are more interested in online surveillance over more pertinent issues (e.g., stagnant wages with inflating profits, rise in living costs, the current energy and food hikes due to Trump's latest war, etc...). And this crosses the political divides, even that restrictions on CP in Italy and America have occurred under nominally right-wing incumbents.

This is a good point in comparative outlook. I was try to focus on Britain alone as it was the thread's topic. I do think, however, the explanations are not mutually exclusive. After all, many political psychosis are shared, and often cross the political system.

[Walton]

As explained elsewhere by Jim Burton - I'm a British journalist currently writing a book about historic and current failures around child protection, with a view to suggesting changes that make systems and policies operate more effectively and humanely, including in the treatment of MAPs.

Having interviewed some people caught up in the current aggressive British policing of online images, I am wondering if anyone has looked at this from a legal and rights perspective. There's obviously issues around "does the punishment fit the crime?", of stigmatisation and of course the conflation of image offences with contact ones, given academic certainty of there being little or no causal relationship between image viewing and IRL actions.

Do please get in touch if you have a view. I am happy to preserve anonymity and confidentiality.

Alex Renton

I'd gladly chat with you even on a video call I only turn on the microphone or wear a full face mask and I'd answer all the questions you have to the best of my knowledge. Don't know how you'd want to do it but I have telegram. Message me if you'd still like to ask questions or just curious about what goes on inside of a childlovers mind like myself

[Non Name]

As explained elsewhere by Jim Burton - I'm a British journalist currently writing a book about historic and current failures around child protection, with a view to suggesting changes that make systems and policies operate more effectively and humanely, including in the treatment of MAPs.

Having interviewed some people caught up in the current aggressive British policing of online images, I am wondering if anyone has looked at this from a legal and rights perspective. There's obviously issues around "does the punishment fit the crime?", of stigmatisation and of course the conflation of image offences with contact ones, given academic certainty of there being little or no causal relationship between image viewing and IRL actions.

Do please get in touch if you have a view. I am happy to preserve anonymity and confidentiality.

Alex Renton

As someone who has moved from the UK to Japan, I would also be down for an interview. I haven't been involved with the "justice" system of either country (at least, not for MAP-related reasons), but if I can contribute my views to your work that would be grand.

[CantChainTheSpirit]

Thanks very much for sharing this story. It certainly supports a lot I have heard from people caught up in the online policing drive, not least in the damage done to families.
Can I ask for a little more detail - what the end result of the case was, and why the police initially targeted you? I know that some English police forces are now using "cease and desist" letters in first-time cases involving such low category material.
Do PM me if that's better.
Alex R

I can't DM on here but it's not something I generally talk about, there's little point.
Why was I targeted? I don't know. The girls mother even vouched for me as a character and apologised to me. It wasn't her fault, its just how the system works I guess.

I contacted a support organisation for advice and they were great. They had a few experts including a lady who had been a prison officer, then a parole officer before going into the private sector as a trainer and researcher. She told me that part of the problem is that people in the police and even social services are not actually trained to understand minor attraction. The police learn how to enforce the law, social services are taught how to manage risk, but neither learns about minor attraction so in her opinion, they don't have the training or tools to really differentiate or deal with people with minor attraction. She said that minor attraction is very common, she gave me some stats that I've long forgotten about how many people are locked up for cp offences ranging from very minor offences to extreme. She said when she was a prison officer it was clear that most of these people didn't belong in prison and it just created a dangerous situations for them and for prison officers. It didn't help them in any way, it just created problems.

I've found that there are people who study and really understand minor attraction beyond the superficial. MAPs are not predators and predators are more often not MAPs. Some people develop porn addictions and if anything they should be getting treatment for addiction. Instead of flooding prisons with ordinary people with problems in their lives, target producers. I mean in my case it wasn't porn in my opinion, there was no nudity or erotic acting or anything like that. You could search Google or Bing for kids in costumes or at the beach and find wose. In my case it took a judge to intervene and point out the problems with the case. My case will be far from unique, I think that real cp consumption has dropped over time as the Internet has cleaned its act up and so in a scramble to protect teams and budgets, the definition has just been expanded out over time. An ever expanding circle will capture more dots even as the number of dots per square cm falls. If the definition of cp returned to children in pornographic acts then the stats would be a lot lower, departments would shrink, budgets would be slashed. Maybe I'm cynical but that's the only way I can see it making sense.