Question for pro-c MAPs

[CantChainTheSpirit]

There are two things I'd like to say about this.

Firstly, I had an adult sexual partner when I was 6, a family friend. It started with him being a good family friend who I liked and it eventually became a sexual relationship. I have happy memories of it although I enjoyed it too much and started to pursue him too much. One time I left home and went to his place which caused a storm at home. My parents were in a panic that I'd disappeared and he was in panic when I turned up at his house, I was missing him. Well he marched me home and he kept more distance from me after that so I would cool off. I very much consented and pursued his attention. I was masturbating around then but I remember it more clearly from the age of around 9 when I started to be more creative and use things like warm wet paper to try to simulate what a girls thing might feel like.

Secondly, as a parent, as any parent knows, kids can be very stubborn and have no problem telling you what they like, dislike, want, don't want, fear, hate, love etc. Whether it's eating their greens or going to visit their auntie with the smelly house, they will clearly say what they want and it's a battle getting them to consent. Eat your greens and you can have ice cream after or come to your aunties because she has a gift for you and she's unwell and really wants to see you. Kids have strong wills, can express themselves clearly, can be stubborn. Kids consent to many things and have the mental capacity to reason and consent to these things. The idea that somehow when it comes to physical connection they suddenly lose that makes no sense. Food, drink, shelter, connection, sex, bonding, these are all basic human experiences and needs, we are literally built for them. There's nothing mystical about sex, it isn't a divine act, there's no magic required, it's a basic and natural act that is fun and pleasurable.

When my wife gave birth to her first daughter, by the age of 3 we were in a panic when she started to masturbate, a lot. We went to get advice and was surprised to learn that it's normal, many if not most kids do it. They touch themselves, discover it's pleasurable and so keep doing it. The advice was to talk to her and tell her to only do that alone in her room, so we did.

A few years later, around 5, she would sometimes have friends visit and she'd suddenly announce that she wanted them to leave. It turned out she needed to masturbate and so she wanted them to go so she could. So not the perfect solution but the best of all options. The reality is that kids are sexual, they play with themselves, play experiment with other kids because you're hardly able to talk to adults about it. Kids are left to just muddle through it all because it's too taboo to talk about but the reality is that kids are sexual, I don't think any expert argues against that.

The sole argument I see being made is that maps can take advantage of kids sexuality but I don't think they do. Most sexual abuse isn't by maps, because maps have empathy for kids. When a map has a sexual relationships it's much more mutual, like I experienced as a kid and I only have happy memories of that time.

[harrydubois666]

There are two things I'd like to say about this.

Firstly, I had an adult sexual partner when I was 6, a family friend. It started with him being a good family friend who I liked and it eventually became a sexual relationship. I have happy memories of it although I enjoyed it too much and started to pursue him too much. One time I left home and went to his place which caused a storm at home. My parents were in a panic that I'd disappeared and he was in panic when I turned up at his house, I was missing him. Well he marched me home and he kept more distance from me after that so I would cool off. I very much consented and pursued his attention. I was masturbating around then but I remember it more clearly from the age of around 9 when I started to be more creative and use things like warm wet paper to try to simulate what a girls thing might feel like.

Secondly, as a parent, as any parent knows, kids can be very stubborn and have no problem telling you what they like, dislike, want, don't want, fear, hate, love etc. Whether it's eating their greens or going to visit their auntie with the smelly house, they will clearly say what they want and it's a battle getting them to consent. Eat your greens and you can have ice cream after or come to your aunties because she has a gift for you and she's unwell and really wants to see you. Kids have strong wills, can express themselves clearly, can be stubborn. Kids consent to many things and have the mental capacity to reason and consent to these things. The idea that somehow when it comes to physical connection they suddenly lose that makes no sense. Food, drink, shelter, connection, sex, bonding, these are all basic human experiences and needs, we are literally built for them. There's nothing mystical about sex, it isn't a divine act, there's no magic required, it's a basic and natural act that is fun and pleasurable.

When my wife gave birth to her first daughter, by the age of 3 we were in a panic when she started to masturbate, a lot. We went to get advice and was surprised to learn that it's normal, many if not most kids do it. They touch themselves, discover it's pleasurable and so keep doing it. The advice was to talk to her and tell her to only do that alone in her room, so we did.

A few years later, around 5, she would sometimes have friends visit and she'd suddenly announce that she wanted them to leave. It turned out she needed to masturbate and so she wanted them to go so she could. So not the perfect solution but the best of all options. The reality is that kids are sexual, they play with themselves, play experiment with other kids because you're hardly able to talk to adults about it. Kids are left to just muddle through it all because it's too taboo to talk about but the reality is that kids are sexual, I don't think any expert argues against that.

The sole argument I see being made is that maps can take advantage of kids sexuality but I don't think they do. Most sexual abuse isn't by maps, because maps have empathy for kids. When a map has a sexual relationships it's much more mutual, like I experienced as a kid and I only have happy memories of that time.

Thanks for your detailed post, I've read about positive AMSC experiences, have you ever told anyone about it? it seems that in most cases when you experience such a thing it's like people want you to be traumatized, like if you tell them that you had a good experience they will get angry and gaslight you so you think you were abused

[JGHeaven]

I think it's insulting and dehumanizing to say anyone doesn't have the right to consent. I think this whole issue is a leftover of the old patriarchy that feels a need to control and dominate. Women have fought hard to break free of that, children are the last remaining target of oppression and that control will not be given up easily.

[CantChainTheSpirit]

Thanks for your detailed post, I've read about positive AMSC experiences, have you ever told anyone about it? it seems that in most cases when you experience such a thing it's like people want you to be traumatized, like if you tell them that you had a good experience they will get angry and gaslight you so you think you were abused

No I haven't, if I did then people could turn on me for saying something people don't want to hear or could turn on him even after all these years.
The closest I've got is I know his family and they've told me how he's doing, where he's living and I've thought about reaching out to him more to say "thank you" and to reassure him that everything we did back then was wonderful and good. I don't want him feeling any regret or anger towards himself if he someone who believes the vile stories told by the media and anti's.

I doubt many people, close to zero, in my situation would speak out. The world only wants traumatized victims in these situations and if anyone doesn't manifest as one then they'll be made into victims. Telling my story officially anywhere would have no positive impact, I could be attacked, he could, my family could be. The best I can do is speak anonymously because I have no interest in making myself or others into victims.

[example]

Honestly consent isn’t as hard as some people make it, even though it does require constant communication between the partners involved. But an individual just needs to be able to say ‘yes’ and ‘no’, and to learn about sexuality to be able to consent to (non-penetrative) sexual acts. All abilities that can and do show up in very young kids. Literally the only thing stopping them is the “inherent power adults have over kids) aka coercion of kids by adults making them unable to say ‘no’ to adults.

[Rakuraku]

I'm curious, at what age do you think minors can consent? I can see how a 12yo teen would want to have sex with people their age because they already know what sex is and have libido, but a 9yo doesn't, what makes you think it's OK? How can the consent to something they don't understand? I remember I started masturbating when I was 11, but younger than that seems wrong

10ish maybe. I think it depends on emotional maturity and the understanding of the act. I thought PIEs proposals were generally sound so if someone asked for a program I would say something like that. Though I would want to pare it with other things that lead to children being more liberated. I don't think legalization would be a good thing if it wasn't pared with things that would result in greater child liberation. If an adult can manipulate a kid into sex who wouldn't otherwise want it because they're stuck with their awful parents that's bad. Not to say every relationship in that vein is bad just that there's a liability for abuse that I think any reasonable map should want to avoid. If you love kids you don't want to see them get hurt