Is "grooming" a meaningful concept?

[Brain O'Conner]

Even young children are interested in sex, even if it's just on the level of curiosity. In fact, they're fascinated by it. They may perceive arousal differently from those who have started puberty, but they don't exist in a state of sexless purity. That's a fact that's been recognised since Freud came along.

I beg to differ. While you're are right in a way that prepubescent children do those things out of curiosity, a lot don't solely do it out of curiosity with no sexual feelings attached.

I don't see how we differ here. Kids find lots of things sexually arousing. However, the focus does change with puberty. It's quite normal for five-year-olds to find poo and snot erotic, and they are likely to enjoy playing with their genitals, but show them a romantic scene in a movie and many, if not most, will find it boring.

I may have misunderstood you then. But even so, there are a lot of kids that are five or six years old that get turn on whether they are exposed to erotic things such seeing their parents or other people having sex, particular body parts about a man or womans body, erotic poses or dances, and so on and so forth. I would also state the fact that children that young do have romantic feelings as anybody else would have them for and reenact the things they see from a movie to express the feelings and desires they want with a person. Again, none of this stuff is puberty dependent. I didn't really know that children that young get aroused over poo or snot though; I never heard of that one before

[Harlan]

Also works fairly well with 4 year intervals:
Nepiophilia 0-3
Early Pedophilia 4-7
Late Pedophilia 8-11
Hebephilia 12-15
Ephebophilia / Teleiophilia 16+

Overcomplicated. 3-4 year periods are too short and confusing. Also it seems to me unnecessary to separate Nepiophilia, it is more of a fetish and part of Pedophilia.

[Fragment]

Overcomplicated. 3-4 year periods are too short and confusing. Also it seems to me unnecessary to separate Nepiophilia, it is more of a fetish and part of Pedophilia.

In my experience working with kids these kind of seem to hit major divides in developmental milestones, though. Not precisely, of course, but very approximately.

[Anonymous_Lover]

No.

[Outis]

In my opinion, terms like grooming and rape are very serious terms with were created to describe specific and serious situations, but both of which have been coopted to serve an agenda which weakens the meaning of those terms and exposes people to increased risk who were supposed to be protected by those terms.

Rape is a terrible thing to happen, where one person forces or pressures another into sex against their will or without consent. But that term has been expanded out to include anyone having sex with someone in an age range with the justification that people in that age range have no ability or right to give consent, and no will. That removes rights from young people and reduces their self empowerment or respect while diluting the seriousness of actual rape. Dilluting the serious crime of rape in this way could lead to an increase in actual rape crime while leaving victims feeling that what they've endured is less than how serious it really was.

Grooming is a terrible thing to happen, when someone manipulates another in any way, especially if it's manipulating someone into sex or into harmful situations such as drugs, crime or seclusion. But as with the term rape, it has been expanded to include anyone who has a relationship with a child where a relationship leads to anything that doesn't fit with social norms. It doesn't even have to lead to anything, it can just be someone who is identified as a pedophile talking to and having a friendship with a child. That map might genuinely care for the child, listen to the child, be a support for the child, help with real problems such as bullying advice or dealing with abuse in the home. But as soon as it's identified that one person is a pedophile and the other a child and they have a friendly relationship then the term grooming won't be far behind. If a friendship goes further and leads to even just a kiss, you can be sure that the pedophile will be accused of grooming. The effect is that grooming is a dilluted term that again distracts from the seriousness of actual grooming of anybody of any age and could lead to an increase in actual grooming and victims.

[Harlan]

Grooming is a terrible thing to happen, when someone manipulates another in any way, especially if it's manipulating someone into sex or into harmful situations such as drugs, crime or seclusion.

There are many other words for this (deception, manipulation, etc.) But the term "grooming" is deliberately used to dehumanize things like friendliness, caring, flirting. Since society denies youth sexuality, they needed a term that would support their delusion that a minor is always being maliciously manipulated by an "adult pervert"

[Outis]

Grooming is a terrible thing to happen, when someone manipulates another in any way, especially if it's manipulating someone into sex or into harmful situations such as drugs, crime or seclusion.

There are many other words for this (deception, manipulation, etc.) But the term "grooming" is deliberately used to dehumanize things like friendliness, caring, flirting. Since society denies youth sexuality, they needed a term that would support their delusion that a minor is always being maliciously manipulated by an "adult pervert"

That's very true.

[Batmanthecute]

I beg to differ. While you're are right in a way that prepubescent children do those things out of curiosity, a lot don't solely do it out of curiosity with no sexual feelings attached.

I don't see how we differ here. Kids find lots of things sexually arousing. However, the focus does change with puberty. It's quite normal for five-year-olds to find poo and snot erotic, and they are likely to enjoy playing with their genitals, but show them a romantic scene in a movie and many, if not most, will find it boring.

I may have misunderstood you then. But even so, there are a lot of kids that are five or six years old that get turn on whether they are exposed to erotic things such seeing their parents or other people having sex, particular body parts about a man or womans body, erotic poses or dances, and so on and so forth. I would also state the fact that children that young do have romantic feelings as anybody else would have them for and reenact the things they see from a movie to express the feelings and desires they want with a person. Again, none of this stuff is puberty dependent. I didn't really know that children that young get aroused over poo or snot though; I never heard of that one before

I agree with Brian. Most kids are curious once they were born. My earliest memory is being maybe 3 with a hand on while watching X-Men 2 (although that movie is kinda dirty) my female cousin and I would play a dirty form of truth or dare when we were 4 and for the longest I was convinced I was sexually abused as a baby because that be the only explanation to why I was so horny. I would grope mannequins in stores, watch dirty movies in secret in my bedroom, try to come on to adults and other kids. This was when I was 3-7 but when society told me kids can’t be sexual. When my mom would tell me to close my eyes during a kissing scene that was when I became very sexually reclusive. Kids are naturally sexual beings whether society wants to admit it or not. It’s just the question that is it wrong if an adult decides to be apart of the awakening. I’m personally into middle school girls so I don’t know about anything like that but it does beg a lot of questions.

[Harlan]

...there are a lot of kids that are five or six years old that get turn on whether they are exposed to erotic things such seeing their parents or other people having sex, particular body parts about a man or womans body, erotic poses or dances, and so on and so forth. I would also state the fact that children that young do have romantic feelings as anybody else would have them for and reenact the things they see from a movie to express the feelings and desires they want with a person. Again, none of this stuff is puberty dependent. ...

I remember very well, from the age of 4 I experienced erotic attraction to boys, at first it was expressed in an interest in nudity and fantasies about being seen naked. Leafing through The Jungle Book with its colorful illustrations of a nearly naked Mowgli, I felt sexual arousal. Especially when Mowgli was completely naked. I wanted to take off the dolls' clothes or look into their panties. I already mentioned that when I was in kindergarten, another boy and I had a strong sexual desire, we went into seclusion, started undressing and petting until we were caught.

[Fragment]

Been thinking about grooming a bit more. Read this link.

https://www.ceopeducation.co.uk/parents ... -grooming/

Building a relationship.
Grooming is about making a child think that abuse and exploitation is normal, or that they have no choice. Offenders do this by building a relationship and emotional connection with the child.

What might be happening?

• trying to convince the child that they are in a loving relationship as boyfriend or girlfriend
• relationship building over a short space of time – not seeking to be a boyfriend or girlfriend, but to make a quick connection. May be through flattery or pretending to have lots in common
• becoming a mentor to the young person, making them think they are someone who can help them or teach them things
• becoming a dominant figure in a young person’s life, perhaps by having a relationship with their parent or carer
• building a relationship with the child’s family, making them think that they are someone who can be trusted with the child.

Gaining power over a child.
In all grooming, the offender will try to gain power over the child, to manipulate or coerce them.

What might be happening?

• emotionally intimidating the child by threatening to withdraw their affection or saying things like, ‘if you loved me you would’
• telling the child there will be terrible consequences for refusing to do something sexual
• mimicking love. If a young person feels they are in love, this gives an offender power
• developing a dependency on drugs or alcohol so they can control them through addiction
• meeting a need, such as emotional needs, shelter, money

Keeping it secret.
In all cases offenders will try to make sure that the child doesn’t tell anyone else about the abuse.

What might be happening?

• telling the child that no one will believe them
• threatening to share secrets that the child has told them
• telling children that they have done something illegal and will be in trouble
• using the above power advantages against the child

To be honest, many of those behaviors do sound coercive. The ones in blue aren’t (necessarily) grooming though, just indicative of care and affection.

Funnily just talking to a minor and showing interest is seen as grooming now though. If it was used to refer to coercive behaviors like on this list I’d have much less of a problem with it.