Pedologues
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Jim Burton
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Re: Pedologues
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Re: Pedologues
Pedologues Episode 26 (30 August 2006) Rookiee, and Abraxas.
Waffle: (09:33 to 14:10)
Abraxas story.
Rookiee: what have you been doing since episode 3? Abraxas: I haven’t had a boyfriend in twenty-five years or so; a very boring life. Rookiee: when you say boyfriends, you mean any age, right? Abraxas: yes, ‘boy’ in the literal sense. A mutual loving relationship like the one I had where we were very happy together. Unfortunately, other people were not so happy. Rookiee: so you did your time, and in some ways, you are still doing your time. Abraxas: yes, due to the pariah laws in this country. (14:11 to 15:26)
Mechanics of fascism I.
Abraxas: A link to a really good article was sent to me. It is on counterpunch.org and called ‘sexual fascism in progressive America’. The author goes by the pseudonym Pariah. It discusses how fascist states need to have a subculture to create societal pariahs, a despised subgroup that makes society feel better about itself, one to fear and to hate, whose very existence demands totalitarian state apparatus of surveillance and control applied to it. (15:27 to 17:04)
John Hopkins statistics.
Fred Berlin from John Hopkins University sex disorders clinic, cites 0.1% of all sex offences in the US involve kidnap, rape, torture and murder. Less than 10% of all sex offenders re-offend, but recidivism is given as an excuse to impose draconian measures upon release. Around thirty children annually are abducted, raped and murdered by strangers, but three thousand are murdered in the family home by parents or family members. The media make it seem as if stranger abduction events happen all the time, but coverage of child murders in the home is minimal. Facts do not matter when hysteria prevails, and the media can make money from selling stories that reinforce societal fears. (17:05 to 18:46)
NBC’s schizophrenic dateline.
Abraxas: it’s about ratings. For example, NBC’s Dateline show ‘to catch a predator’, recently did a piece on May K Letourneau and her husband Vili. This was a fairly balanced program, considering the crap Dateline usually broadcasts. I thought how schizophrenic of Dateline to treat the topic in such polarised ways across its shows. (18:47 to 19:48)
Are mid-teens children?
Abraxas: there was a case of a 21yo who had arranged to meet a supposed 15yo. Why should that even be a problem? I don’t understand that. He was obviously gay, and the teen was obviously not pre-pubescent. I know what the ages of consent are in this country and they are ridiculously high. Rookiee: in many other countries around the world, the 15yo would be an adult. (19:49 to 21:05)
Entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer.
Rookiee: talking to Dylan Thomas from Boy Chat and SQR. We discussed a few ideas, such as: devising one sets of rules defining adulthood and childhood and fully-functioning citizenship requirements within a given society. In an agrarian society, a child entering puberty is expected to work on the land with adults. In an industrial society, adult responsibilities come later, once a certain education level is reached. In this information age, technological aptitude is reducing the age at which a child acquires adult capabilities. Justin Berry, the entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer, is a case in point. Do you think this phenomenon will be a catalyst for change? Abraxas: I see a modern world dominated by moralist anti-sex diktats promoting bigotry and fear, all courtesy of a US axis of evil burrowing its way into the affairs of foreign countries and cultures, where it has no business to be. In my opinion, I don’t see it getting any better any time soon; I see it getting worse. (21:06 to 26:04)
Different cultures comparison.
Rookiee: I have nothing against marijuana use, and don’t consider it to be a moral offence to consume it. Talking to Lindsay Ashford about this topic, he called the US the evil empire. Abraxas: can’t disagree with that. Rookiee: he was in Prague for ten years, but moved on to South America. He found it better in many ways. Attitudes were far more accepting, more open, more hospitable, and less fearful. He told a story of walking down a street one evening when he saw a little girl in her home. They began to make faces at each other. The parents saw what was happening, and before he knew it, he had been invited into their home for a meal and wine. If this scenario played out in the US, someone would have called the police, and the media would have had a ball reporting on it. (26:05 to 28:36)
Bleeding over process.
Abraxas: not only is the US government influencing other governments, country borders are becoming all American. Mexican border towns are becoming victims to this bleeding-over process where American media, American money and American politics infect foreign soils. Mexican society is inexorably becoming an extension of American society. (28:37 to 29:45)
Waffle: (29:46 to 30:51)
PNVD.
Rookiee: I talked to Norbert de Jonge from PNVD last night. I wanted to know what was going on, following their discussions within Pedologue episodes 22 and 22.5. Norbert wanted to dispel several myths. First, Ad van den Berg did not go into hiding. He was forced out of his home by vigilantes, egged on by the media. Second, their PNVD party is not a paedophile party. The have stated what they are on their website and in episodes 22 and 23. The situation with PNVD continues to be fluid and transitional. Abraxas: in a democratic society, political parties must be given a voice no matter how outrageous. I have been following this topic on boy lover and girl lover boards. One thing that really irritates me is people who jump on them and demean them, or comment that it is a ‘no hope’ party. Seems to me we have a bucket full of negativity courtesy of the outside world; why should we also have to put up with hate from our own community. It really amazes me that this happens. It makes me question whether such people are genuine child lovers, or government agency trolls trying to destroy us. Let us try to get behind PNVD and support them. One comment I read on the boards was from someone who compared PNVD to NAMBLA. Such a comment could only have come from law enforcement; no child lover would have made it. (30:52 to 38:59)
Chat board problems.
Rookiee: do you think the boards are being splintered by law enforcement. Abraxas: yes, undoubtedly. Not just that, but resistance from self-righteous paedophiles who are dead against contact of any sort with a child. I am of the opinion that boards are useless as far as getting anything done is concerned. Most of those complaining don’t do a damn thing. I joined a board that had members that were decided on changing the world. Unfortunately I got kicked off that board, because of my criminal record. Rookiee: it is just not possible to create a child love community without child lover members who have fallen fowl of the law at some point in their life. (39:00 to 44:42)
Entrapment.
Abraxas: I can never figure out how someone can be convicted for propositioning a minor, when there is no minor involved. In reality, you are propositioning an adult who is pretending to be a minor. In any other crime, it would be entrapment and thrown out of court. It is amazing what law enforcement get away with regarding our sexual minority group. Rookiee: no crime has been committed here. We are talking about the law and commenting on it. We are not advocating illegal activity. (44:43 to 47:45)
Mechanics of fascism II.
Abraxas: more from Pariah in CounterPunch. Estimates of more than thirty-five thousand children and adolescents convicted of sex offences and being required to register. But children are said to be asexual and have no interest in sex whatsoever. Rookiee: I am in favour of the state charging a minor as an adult. If they are considered to be adults, then the age of consent would need to be lowered accordingly. Abraxas: you would think so, however, you are dealing with people who are illogical and have no common sense. Rookiee: the same people would punish us just for having a paedosexuality. (47:46 to 49:56)
Pedologues under attack.
Rookiee: are you familiar with Stacey Harp from Christian Active Media? She attacked the boy love blog I administer called ‘Pedastria, the boy love revival’. Stacey Harp says ‘the fact this blog exists is equivalent to when a child comes to its mother and says they are being molester, then the mother doesn’t do anything about it’. Abraxas: where do they get these analogies from? Rookiee: she riled her fan-base up and got them to pound on the blog. Suddenly the blog was gone. Someone had erased it. It was down for a while, but it is now back up with twenty-five bloggers, so we are louder than before. I am now under attack from vigilantes and hackers here. I have reviewed Google’s terms of service, and I see that I am protected from such attacks. Abraxas: such people feel they are immune from criticism and that society is on their side because tacit approval is given to behave illegally. Rookiee: I am well aware of high profile I have become. I found an FBI document that states Pedologues is a high profile paedophile website, whatever that means. They are shadow-criminalising me when I have done absolutely nothing wrong. In doing these podcasts, I have actually learnt a lot about myself. (49:57 to 55:44)
9yo sex offenders.
In episode 20, talking with Old Saint Nick from IPCE, he said it’s not just a right that children should have sex, it is an actual physical biological need. It is society that has the problem, not us. Abraxas: what concerns me is those people who write laws that incriminate 9 year old kids and turn them into sex offenders, were doubtless guilty of the very same ‘offence’ at the very same age. All of us need to recognize who we are and what we are. There are very few child lovers out there who have not suffered to some degree in their lives because of what they are. (55:45 to 01:03:31)
Pedologues Episode 27 (3 September 2006) Rookiee, and Joe Cool.
Boylover.net hierarchy.
Joe: I am executive director of boylover.net. The board creators were Boylover, Loren and ELW. They have since resigned due to real life commitments. Loren wrote the rules and designed the board. Rookiee: what is the board hierarchy? Joe: buddy team does member support and fellowship. Mod team does board legality and rule enforcement. Senior team oversees mod and buddy teams, and advises on what should be upheld. Mod and buddy managers manage teams. Admin has specific focus on member security, registrations, and technical issues. There are two directors. We intend to add directors and create a committee. (01:22 to 11:14)
Board closed to public.
Rookiee: when I first joined, I found it friendly and all forums were open. I didn’t have to register to view them. Now, one has to join to see any board. Joe: yes, unfortunately. With new software, the boards will open to the public. Currently, the existing server cannot handle the load. (11:15 to 12:09)
DDOS attacks.
Joe: when we were originally attacked by somethingawful.com, we figured they were using repeated denial of service (DDOS) attacks on individual member pages. Attacks were stopped by closing the board to membership only. We are DDOS’d on an almost daily basis. Rookiee: once you go public with your new server, how will you combat attacks? Custom application code will defend us, so the system will be more secure and robust. (12:10 to 14:37)
Press coverage.
Joe: everyone but us has been in the news. Main stream media ignores us because we are too big. We have 600,000 hits per month plus 35,000 registered users, 15% of which are active. Rookiee: how do you avoid being sued? Joe: we are just too big, plus we are not a corporation. (14:38 to 21:05)
Moderator behaviour.
Rookiee: your mods are strict in what can be shown. How many moderators are there? Joe: roughly 80 including admin; all staff is over 108. Rookiee: how do you select and manage your staff? Joe: we take level-headed people plus we are not political. Staff must stay neutral, although mod emotions can get in the way. They are tasked with making decisions based on our rules. For the most part it works. (21:06 to 23:50)
Training.
Rookiee: what training exists? Joe: in mod interviews, sample scenarios are provided. We pose questions, like ‘what would you do in this case?’ Before they start, there is a training room with threads with breaches. We see how they deal with these. Coaching is given if threads are not handled correctly. (23:51 to 24:34)
Illegal post handling.
What happens with illegal posts? We abide by US law. For border line posts, a member has to self-edit. If they refuse, we edit or move it to a ‘cellar’ that only mods and admins can access. For clear breaches, they go to the cellar. If it is a top-five-rule breach, the member faces suspension. Rookie: are mods aware of what constitutes illegal pornography? Joe: yes. (24:35 to 26:34)
Legal obligations.
Rookiee: do you report members? What happens to the picture? Joe: I am not sure what Dutch law is regarding a host server receiving such a photo, but we would destroy it. We do not report members as we have no means to trace them. Rookie: but IP addresses are obtainable. Joe: not if a proxy is used. Member information is confidential. Rookiee: who is liable? Joe: the member. A court case ten years ago established this. We are a foreign company, so Dutch laws apply. We are subject to US law for the boards the public can browse. If a foreign agency became involved, they would have to go through Interpol. If that happened, we would seek legal advice to protect member confidentiality. (26:35 to 31:39)
Internet jurisdiction.
Rookiee: an international treaty was recently ratified by the senate. If a Netherlands host breaks US law, the FBI can petition them to extradite people. Joe: all I can say is good luck for getting cooperation. Rookiee: several countries cooperate with this treaty. I hear legal and civil rights groups are angry, as it removes state sovereignty. Joe: no-one should have jurisdiction over the internet. If we regulate information, what’s next? Burning books outside libraries? What thoughts should be outlawed? The US with its Christian morality is so bull-headed, it thinks it can dominate all. (31:40 to 34:09)
International government.
Rookiee: we are headed towards international government. Joe: as a technical computer guy, I feel it should be treated as open source, and yet they propose to outlaw zeros and ones. Eventually, the internet will grow into its own society and will drive itself. I look at my own government and see gross inefficiency. They need to keep their hands off the internet. (34:10 to 38:29)
Internet censorship.
Joe: some countries regulate the internet. Saudi Arabia folk cannot access our site for example. China hugely regulates the internet. I would prefer my private company controlling my access to the internet, rather than my government overseeing all I do. Rookiee: when the constitution was ratified in 1778 or 1779, the bill of rights stipulated government cannot interfere with citizen’s freedoms. What if private corporations tell you ‘no, our policy prevents us hosting your content’? Joe: this happened to us. We went through six hosts in seven months, costing us $4000. As hosts received complaints and saw their networks DDOS’d, they dropped us. We bought our own server in Holland. This opened doors for us. Rookiee: you are still at the mercy of corporations. Joe: I don’t see government being any better. Rookiee: Free Spirits have their own ISP and are independent. Joe: we found a data centre willing to host us and sell us band width. (38:29 to 42:41)
Federal vs State.
Rookiee: what if The Netherlands is subjected to ‘Bush control’? Joe: then we are fucked. Rookiee: the world sees the US as a bully. Joe: the Federal government has gone astray. Originally, control was 95% state and 5% federal. That has flipped. Citizens are totally out of touch. Government wants citizens to remain stupid. Rookiee: as I got into podcasting, I found corporations limited my freedom of speech. Joe: freedom of speech doesn’t exist anymore. I was arrested for saying ‘asshole’ and ‘bullshit’ to a security officer. I got the case dismissed, but I had to post $1200 bail. We are the laughing stock of the world. Free speech my ass. (42:42 to 50:42)
Child pornography.
Joe: re free speech, the child pornography topic is one of hot debate. Once information is online, it is impossible to get rid of. Why spend millions of dollars removing something that is there forever? Child pornography possession crime is thought crime. Rookiee: some say abuse is propagated by creating demand for it. Joe: supply and demand only works in a capitalist society where tangible and renewable assets exist. Rookiee: others say merely viewing child pornography is illegal. Joe: most people do not differentiate between viewing and possession. Mere possession harms no-one. The US government is at war with inanimate objects. (50:43 to 59:10)
US intelligence gathering.
Joe: intelligence agencies have this great philosophy: ‘if only we can gather enough intelligence and databases cross-referenced to each other, then we will find terrorists and fix the problem’. It is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous. There is no solution to preventing terrorism, drugs, or child pornography. Law enforcement fixates on problems here and abroad, but have no way to solve them. Rookiee: terrorists and paedophiles have become synonymous, why is this? Joe: every society needs a scapegoat to hate. Fifty years ago it was communists and homosexuals. (59:11 to 01:02:54)
Community political responsibility
Rookiee: what do you do with people who openly talk about harming children? Joe: people should exercise restraint and consider how they are perceived by saying it. They should ask: ‘am I incriminating myself, am I doing something illegal, am I putting others in jeopardy’. That is a good place to draw the line. Rookiee: I am concerned for our community. Gays back in the 1970s had to shape up to further their cause, to gain protected status plus DSM exemption. We should be doing that. Joe: do we have a political responsibility? Yes, but I don’t see things getting better. I look at NAMBLA and see the public perception of it equating with man-boy sex. They have hindered more than helped us. Rookiee: the lewd comments we make, imply we are a threat to children. Joe: if we are to gain some acceptance, we need to distance ourselves from the sexual issue. Rookiee: politically, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Are we perverts? Joe: yes. (01:02:55 to 01:11:17)
Casualties of repression.
Joe: many new people to our community have never expressed themselves sexually, or talked to anyone else, especially not in a positive way. They come into our fold like kids in a candy store. The board gives them that opportunity. It is difficult to moderate them until they are confident with whom they are. Rookiee: the repression of our sexuality causes us to be this way. Joe: in many ways, yes. (01:11:18 to 01:14:40)
Benefit of boards.
Rookiee: society would say: ‘boards promote child abuse’. Joe: I don’t see it that way. I believe they help individuals cope and find themselves. I realise boards do not help us in the eyes of society. I found boards when I was 17. I considered myself to be a monster back then. After six months, I realised I wasn’t. I was normal, and, through no fault of my own, had this attraction. I cannot control my attraction, but I can and do control my actions. Rookiee: what do you say to those claiming boards incite people to commit illegal acts? Joe: they are entitled to their own opinion. Opinions are like ass holes; everyone has one. There are some people who are so bigoted and prejudiced they will always think the way they do, no matter what you say. (01:14:41 to 01:25:56)
Pedologues Episode 28 (8 September 2006) Rookiee, Chelsea, Mom and James.
Introductions.
Chelsea: I am 13yo, and this is my mom. Mom: hi. Rookiee: I am stunned. Last night I was introduced to two people who apparently know a paedophile, and don’t give a shit. (01:49 to 03:21)
Rescuing James.
Rookiee: how did you meet James? Mom: in the street. I realised he was all over the place and I thought I could improve his world. I got him better housing. At that time, I knew his background, and knew he had done penance to society. I also knew the young girl concerned and her mom from way back. Rookiee: you were aware he was low. Mom: yes, he was in a bad place. I knew he deserved way better. I reached out and he accepted my assistance. Rookiee: you knew his character? Mom: yes. Rookiee: for our listeners, James featured on episode 24 with John. (03:22 to 06:43)
Chelsea.
Rookiee: Chelsea, how do you get on with James; you seem to like him? Chelsea: he’s fun. We play card games. Rookiee: you know about him, and you’re cool with it? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: some people would say he’s taking advantage of you, grooming you and will turn you into one of his slaves. You have two eyes and a brain, what would you say to them? Chelsea: I think it is retarded to judge a person without even knowing them. Just because someone thinks differently doesn’t mean they are weird. Rookiee: ‘thinks differently’? Chelsea: well he is a paedophile. Rookiee: what does a paedophile think? Chelsea: as I know it, he likes much younger girls. Rookiee: what’s different about him and a person who likes someone your mom’s age? Chelsea: well he cares about young girls, and wouldn’t want for them to be hurt. Mom: Chelsea, what makes a paedophile bad? Chelsea: someone who hurt others. A good paedophile is one that cares. Mom: there is good and bad in all people. I prefer the term predator paedophile; they don’t care about a child’s welfare, feelings or emotions. I understand all children are sexual to some level. Some people will exploit that, but that is not the norm. (06:44 to 10:19)
Parents as true paedophiles.
Mom: I wish all parents were true paedophiles. This world would be better if children were treated with respect, listened to, and given quality time. Rookiee: do you mean parents that are sexually attracted to kids. Mom: I am talking about showing care and interest. Chelsea: the ‘James’ kind of paedophile. Mom: if a mother is truly interested, she will dote on and spend time with her kids. If not, children will be treated like puppets. (10:20 to 11:56)
Hysteria and fear.
Rookiee: why do people hate paedophilia? Why don’t they want them anywhere near their kids? Mom: media hysteria. Parents are told not to let a child be unaccompanied until they are 18. ‘How dare you let your child travel on a bus on its own, with all those creeps and problems out there.’ Rookiee: is the fear warranted? Mom: it’s no more risky than a woman going on a date with a man. Education is power. With mine, there is nothing we don’t talk about. The topic of paedophilia is just one more item on the list. (11:57 to 15:09)
Openness and education.
Rookiee: you knew about paedophilia before James came along? Mom: yes, both good and bad. Rookiee: were you abused as a youngster? Mom: yes. Rookiee: did you have a consensual relationship? Mom: yes. There were two different people. I got no education from my mother; my home life was dysfunctional. I was sexualised by the bad experience and therefore receptive to the second, especially as it was someone who cared, plus I looked up to him. Rookiee: he allowed you free will? Mom: yes. By then, I was ready, and I knew he would never hurt me. I still have contact with him. Rookiee: people may say: ‘but this is why you allow your child to be put in harm’s way.’ Mom: as our house is open for communication, she would talk to me. We are a team. Rookiee: I have a 12yo friend, Aqua, who is gay and has been on Pedologues several times. His mom treats him as you treat Chelsea. Both of you are open when talking about yourself and your experiences. Aqua has been online for a number of years already, and is technically and socially savvy. If some creep makes advances online, he is sufficiently empowered to say ‘get lost’. (15:10 to 20:52)
Flirtatious girls.
Chelsea: Mom said the only reason James comes to my house to play cards and stuff, was because he was a paedophile. One time, I danced a little, fixed my hair up, and put a shorter shirt on, so I learnt how to use my powers over him. Mom: it was an absolutely priceless moment. Ironically, she was unaware of the effect she was having. Rookiee: it’s probably innate when women act like that in front of a man. Mom: what about you? Rookiee: I really don’t know. Walking down a street, I am more intent looking out for boys, I have to admit. Maybe it is because boys have more scope to act naturally, whereas girls are a little less genuine. (20:53 to 25:25)
Hypocritical society.
Mom: parents put girls on a pedestal by saying: ‘Aren’t they beautiful? Aren’t they sexy?’ Trophy girls are urged to model skimpy bikinis, but, in the same breath they say: ‘don’t you dare look’. The media is guilty of prostituting photos of girls dressed-up and posing as models, turning them into adults before time. Rookiee: boy photos are of boys just being themselves. Mom: for girls, the latest fad is hip-hugger jeans. The front ... Wow! No room for a zipper, and don’t dare look behind else you will realise Plumber’s Butt has become popular. Rookiee: isn’t it better for people to be more open and exhibitionistic? Go to Africa and virtually nothing is worn. (25:26 to 29:06)
Chastity.
Mom: a boy should have sufficient sex education before considering marriage. What about a girl? My dad said: ‘there are two types of girl in this world: the ones you marry, and the ones you have fun with. Which do you want to be?’ By the time she is twenty she should still be a virgin. Rookiee: chastity trumps all. Society doesn’t allow a girl to control her own destiny. It either over-protects them or exploits them. (29:07 to 30:59)
Express yourself.
Mom: allowing children to speak their minds is important. I did this, but my family objected. They felt the child was talking back. The difference is a tough one for a parent to navigate. Rookiee: it is ironic to see parents managing children as objects with no free will. Mom: mothers may as well say: ‘I have a right to raise my child my way, after all, I was the one who spread my legs, so she is mine.’ Rookiee: what is the difference between talking back and talking to? Mom: talking back is: ‘no, I am not going to do that!’ in response to ‘I want you to do that right now.’ In this scenario, negativity is promoted at the expense of respect. (31:00 to 33:59)
Mother-daughter relationship.
Rookiee: what do you think of Mom? Chelsea: she is crazy. She is open, and that is cool. Rookiee: would she stop some guy taking advantage of you? Chelsea: of course. She wouldn’t just let it happen. Rookiee: if James took advantage, she would step up and say get the fuck away from my kid. Chelsea: yes. Mom: have I put you at risk by bringing James into our world? Chelsea: you didn’t know everything about him when you first met him, but you knew he was safe and nothing untoward would happen. Mom: does James ever creep you out? Be honest: Chelsea: yes, but it is only in joking manner. I know it is not serious. (34:00 to 36:31)
James and girls.
Rookiee: there is a girl lover called Lindsay Ashford, who is ‘out’. When he encounters a girl, he makes funny faces at them. The girl just loves it. James, is that common among girl lovers? James: in my case, I make funny faces because I run out of things to say. Rookiee: what is your general age of attraction? James: 8 to 10. Rookiee: Appy from SQR mentioned he was into boys before the age of puberty. He said teens were like a different species. James: as soon as they get bumps, they are too scary to deal with. When I first met Chelsea, she was 11 and I thought she was 14. (36:32 to 41:51)
Waffle: (41:52 to 45:20)
Sex.
Rookiee: let’s go completely politically incorrect and talk sex. What do you know about sex Chelsea? Chelsea: ‘when a mummy and a daddy really love each other ...’ Mom: ‘there’s a stork’. Rookiee: Chelsea, are you into older guys? Chelsea: I like guys my age. Rookiee: would you consider yourself straight? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: are you attracted to James? Chelsea: no. Rookiee: what do you see James as? Chelsea: he is like a neighbour. Rookiee: so you have no desire for a relationship with him. James: do you have any friends that are into older gentlemen, and might find me cute? Chelsea: I do know someone called Ella who is 16yo. James: that’s scary. (45:21 to 50:54)
Canada’s AOC laws
Rookiee: the age of consent is set to be raised to 16yo in Canada. It has been 14yo for the past century or so. As you near 14, how do you feel about that? Chelsea: If I was into all that stuff, I would be rather disappointed. I don’t care to be honest. Rookiee: are you capable of making up your own mind about having sex with someone. Chelsea: yes of course. If I wanted to, I would just do it. Rookiee: do you understand the ramifications, like sexually transmitted diseases. Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: do you feel prepared? Chelsea: no, I am not. I am just not into it. Rookiee: what if people claim you don’t have a mind of your own? Chelsea: well screw them! I have this big thing on my neck called a head, so I can think for myself. Mom: that is beautiful. I know 13yo kids with no history of abuse, no coercion, no grooming, but are totally interested in sex. Such kids would say: ‘I am going to do with my body what I want to’. Rookiee: will raising the consent age protect Chelsea more? Mom: no. Rookiee: will it make kids dumber as a result? Mom: no, it will have the opposite effect. It’s going to push the rebel button. ‘You say I can’t; well just let me show you.’ (50:55 to 56:51)
Hilarity: (56:52 to 01:00:32)
Pedologues Episode 29 (15 September 2006) Rookiee, Oh Hell Yeah, and Craig.
Gene therapy.
Rookiee: what you got to say? Oh Hell Yeah: SQR discussion about gene therapy the other night, and whether it should be used to remove specific defects before a child is born. All very well but people don’t think about potential Jurassic Park consequences. Diversity originates from genetic mutation. So, where does one draw the line? Rookiee: what if paedophiles get classified as genetically defective? Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! Rookiee: what if mature women can no longer conceive due to a fucked-up environment, and only pubescent can? If paedophiles had previously been removed from the gene-pool, and straights couldn’t get it up, then humanity would be completely screwed. (00:56 to 04:23)
Eradicate undesirables.
Craig: this genetic manipulation could go full Hitlerian where a dictator decrees: ‘dispose of all undesirables genetically. Oh Hell Yeah: they do that now by saying we are the undesirables and should be exterminated. I recall an episode of ‘Outer Limits’ where pubescent kids and younger were the only ones to survive a fertility-neutering toxin and where society decided to direct the kids to breed. You have no idea how much I would like this to happen. I would take this predicament and push it right into society’s face. Rookiee: there are good biological reasons why we are this way. Look how kids are treated in today’s society. They are starved of love and affection. Oh Hell Yeah: people prefer to be top dog. White man first slaughtered Red Indians for being inferior, then Blacks were inferior, then women were inferior, then homosexuals were inferior, now paedophiles are inferior. Those minorities now all have equal status. Same will be true of us in the future. It’s only a matter of time. (04:24 to 11:59)
Oh Hell Yeah introduction.
Rookiee: Oh Hell Yeah, you have been in the community since when? Oh Hell Yeah: 1999. What led me here was a story I read on Nifty.org called ‘Double Trouble’. It was a beautiful story and I cried my eyes out because it made me realise who I was. I knew I was a boy lover since I was an 8yo. I also knew if I told anyone about this, I would be hung, most likely by my own family, so I hid the story until I reached 19. The story was written by Boy Chills. Things have come to a sorry pass with a lot of the boards. Not too long ago, I became aware of SQR. I have also trawled through Nifty.org for diamonds in the rough. (12:00 to 14:33)
NAMBLA
Rookiee: besides the boards and a few activist sites, there is very little else available. Oh Hell Yeah: apart from NAMBLA making a stand only to be squished, most boy lovers are scared to organise. Rookiee: NAMBLA is made out to be only about sex, but that is not the case at all. Oh Hell Yeah: their website is out of date. Rookiee relates the period of time NAMBLA were around at a time when gays divorced themselves from chicken hawk behaviour. Around 1990, when gays forged ahead with their agenda, NAMBLA was still included on gay and lesbian coalitions. Law makers pointed this out, so NAMBLA ended up being removed from these coalitions. Essentially, the gays pushed the boy lover community into obscurity. Rookiee refers to the open nature of the meetings held by NAMBLA, and the undercover FBI entrapment, as discussed in episode 16. The absence of technical nous within the NAMBLA organisation meant the internet was not exploited to further activism. Even now they just produce magazines for their members. (14:34 to 23:05)
Activism reluctance.
Oh Hell Yeah: that’s the problem I see in the boy lover community. One group may speak out, then get told by some entity: ‘No!’ This forces them to relent. We need someone with fire to be indignant when told ‘No’. That person needs to confront their accusers, and tell them they are being lazy in not finding out more about the nature of paedophilia. The accuser also needs to be taken to task for hating someone they don’t even know. Rookiee: there are just not enough people willing to do this. Laws are becoming ludicrously draconian so no-one wants to take a risk. Individuals have to be whiter than white to undertake activism. Oh Hell Yeah: I don’t condone child porn, but I can understand why people have it. If a straight man is denied a woman, one of two things will happen. He either has to be a monk, or he is going to find an avenue of release. (23:06 to 27:59)
Brass eye.
Rookiee: Chris Morris, a UK satirist created and presented a ‘Paedogeddon’ special, aired in 2001, as part of the satirical Brass Eye tv series. It tackled paedophilia and the moral panic in parts of the British media. In character Morris said: ‘if you make something a problem, it will become a problem.’ Just because something doesn’t square with society, it doesn’t mean that something is wrong. It just means society is fucked up. Oh Hell Yeah: just because you are taught something is right, and everyone around you also tells you it is right, doesn’t mean to say it makes it right. (28:00 to 29:04)
Siding with the enemy.
Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee there are a lot of boy lovers out there who are teaming up with people like Stacy Harp, simply because it takes the spotlight off them. This is similar behaviour to that of the gay community ousting the boy lover community. (29:05 to 30:02)
Rookiee plays a clip from Paedogeddon: (30:03 to 31:29)
Inaccurate stereotyping.
Oh Hell Yeah: that brings up an interesting thing. People automatically assume that if you are a paedophile, you would want to jump on any child regardless of their age, and do it anywhere. Rookiee: it is called perception. It is not based in any reality. The media magnifies any instance of a boy lover misbehaving into a stereotype. Craig: the media call it predation. This has little to do with sexual attraction. (31:30 to 33:15)
Wikipedia and hypocrisy.
Rookiee: a ‘child love movement’ article got changed to ‘paedophilia activism’. I tried to explain to them this was an inaccurate name for the article. Their title communicated rape and murder, not love. They applied a negative connotation to the piece. An article on abortion has the title ‘pro-choice’. It doesn’t say ‘murdering babies’. It is like talking to a brick wall. Oh Hell Yeah: it is OK to accuse a whole minority group of being molesters, and simultaneously for a woman to spread her legs wide and dispose of multiple babies. After all, society will say in her defence, that is her body, therefore it is her choice. Rookiee: both are consistent with the idea that children are property. Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! The children of celebrities have become fashion accessories. They say we are using kids when in fact it is they that use kids. Rookiee: Hollywood parents pimp out their kids for profit. Ethics flew out of the window. (33:16 to 38:21)
What causes paedophilia?
Oh Hell Yeah: two most popular reasons. It is either a mental illness, or we chose it. Ask a gay adult whether he just woke up one day and chose his sexuality. Then ask him, whether he has an erection whenever he sees a good looking guy in the street. He will answer no to both questions. Rookiee: it’s never a conscious decision; it’s always what the body wants. (38:22 to 42:41)
Waffle: (42:42 to 43:42)
Paedophilia versus religion.
Oh Hell Yeah: no religious person can show you their ‘bible’ and tell you ‘this was handed to me by God who told me “this is my word, live by it”’. Rookiee: any Christian is against paedophiles. I have never heard Stacy Harp quote from her bible that paedophilia is bad. Crimes against children are covered by the bible, but nowhere does it denounce a loving, caring relationship. Oh Hell Yeah: human beings wrote these books, so why should we believe them when they tell us it is the word of God. Rookiee: there are too many contradictions between the testaments to believe they originated from a single God. Christians might say it is open to interpretation, but whose interpretation is correct. The other point, according to some, is that the bible should be taken literally. A further point raised by Old Saint Nick was that Mary was married off at 8yo. Is that not paedophilia? There was likely no demarcation between child and adult back then, particularly as life expectancy was so short. This suggests no concept of paedophilia existed at the time of Jesus. (43:43 to 52:52)
Immaculate conception.
Oh Hell Yeah: I recall a Muslim friend of mine trying to convert me to Islam. He asked: ‘what are they telling you when they say: ‘Jesus, the only begotten son of God’. The dictionary tells us ‘begotten’ implies a single part of sexual reproduction. If this is the case, how did Mary, who was a virgin, give birth? Rookiee: that means the Immaculate Conception was a paedophile relationship. How do we know how God views sex. Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee that those against boy lovers are devout Christians who hold to the idea that God is infallible, and yet the same people claim paedophilia is a mistake. This is an obvious contradiction. (52:53 to 55:14)
Waffle: (55:15 to 01:00:05)
Pedologues Episode 30 (18 September 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn, Norbert.
PNVD update.
Rookiee: we last talked in episode 22 on June 26. What has happened since? Marthijn: we have had a lot of media attention. Some political parties are trying to eradicate us. They want our party to be made illegal. This has prompted a court case, but we are still a legal party. (00:58 to 02:51)
Media interest.
Norbert: we appeared on tv and have done interviews. Focus was not on issues in our manifesto, rather on the topics of paedophilia and child sexuality, and our private lives. They parade us as freaks for entertainment. This just reinforces public prejudice. Rookiee: they are keen to maximise shock value. Norbert: some of the feedback expressed surprise we actually exist. Marthijn: we hope to be given air time to discuss our political program in a less hysterical, more mature way. (02:52 to 07:52)
Court cases.
Norbert: the first case involved a group of people determined to make us illegal. The judge ruled we had a basic right to exist. Our first win enabled us to continue. The second case related to my university refusing me access onto campus. A hearing was conducted at the university, and I lost. We intend to fight this decision at a higher level. Rookiee: what were the grounds for the decision? Norbert: the law says you have to state you disagree with the university decision. They then establish a commission to reconsider their original decision. We did this, but it had no effect. (07:53 to 10:39)
The Hague.
Marthijn: we attended a press conference at The Hague right next to the prime minister’s office. He gave his weekly press conference. I said “Can I ask you a question?” He responded: “No, I don’t have time.” He didn’t like us being in The Hague right next to his office. We emailed every Dutch political party asking them to condemn the hate mail we received. We received no responses. (10:39 to 12:20)
570 signatures of support.
Norbert: a Dutch documentary maker is following us, so some events are on film. One such is us on Utrecht streets asking people to sign and support our right to be election candidates. We need around 570 signatures to make this happen. Far right parties claim that this will be a list of paedophiles, so people are afraid to sign. We have around 100 signatures, but need more. Marthijn: the media is failing to condemn right wing groups, so they are failing to uphold democracy. Norbert: such groups say freedom of speech is irrelevant because these are paedophiles. Rookiee: if any unwanted anomaly appears, it gets ostracised, silenced and made to go away. (12:21 to 18:39)
Pro-paedophilia document.
Marthijn: twenty years ago in Holland, similar opinions were aired politically. Rookiee: now public perceptions are different. Norbert: we have to remind people of political history. We published a several-hundred page document, discussing paedosexuality, child sexuality, and the pro-paedophilia laws established in the past. This document is simply being ignored. (18:40 to 20:24)
Incestuous media and government.
Rookiee: what has changed since then? Marthijn: newspapers seek to maximise circulation. If they publish a story readers may not like, potential revenue is lost. Decline in media objectivity began in the 1990s. Politically correct main-stream media and government are joined at the hip. The smaller media are more receptive, and have published interesting articles. Rookiee: it sounds similar to the podcasting world. Corporate media prevents alternative views from being heard. Marthijn: if a mainstream editor authors an alternative view, he lasts no more than a few seconds. (20:25 to 27:42)
Damages our image.
Norbert: we are trying to open a bank account. None want us as customers. We have been forced to contact ten banks, asking the same question. The same thing goes with internet providers. They claim it is to do with public perception, which is code for you will destroy our image. (27:43 to 28:39)
PNVD website.
Rookiee: if anyone wants to find out about your work, where are you? Marthijn: our website is pnvd.nl, but it is all in Dutch. About one-quarter has been translated; people are working on it. Rookiee: what interviews have you done? Norbert: visit our website and select ‘weblock’; that will take you to ‘films’. The interviews are mainly in English as many non-Dutch countries have sought us. Marthijn: the US pays no attention to us. (28:40 to 31:34)
Paedophilia is hate speech.
Rookiee: my podcast was initially included on podcast alley, but blackmail threats were sent to the Dutch entrepreneur, Adam Curry, because of this. They wanted Pedologues references to be removed. A Nazi white supremacist podcast was also a target. Threats warned he would be reported to outlets such as CNN for broadcasting hate speech. Adam then published a neutral statement on his own podcast saying he reserved the right to exclude any podcast for any reason. He emphasised his liberal Dutch upbringing and the value of free speech. It is ironic that paedophiles would have been systematically sent to concentration camps along with Jews. Norbert: we were similarly accused of being a threat to democracy. It is projection. Marthijn: there was a famous guy in The Netherlands willing to create Star of David insignia patches for our court appearance. Instead we decided upon smiley patches with the words ‘Friends of Children’. Rookiee: that was unlikely to have had the same effect though. Marthijn: the public are really surprised when we mention the Jews in connection with our experiences. They say we are shameless for doing so. They really have no clue what is going on. (31:35 to 38:39)
Support from homosexuals?
Marthijn: I hope the Jews and homosexuals out there can make the comparison. Rookiee: are homosexuals sympathetic or do they side with the general public? Marthijn: they are more tolerant for sure, but they fear this will bring them into disrepute once more, so they remain in the shadows. In the media, gays are dead set against us. Norbert: there is a very good article called ‘defence of paedosex equates to gay cause’. It is on the Martijn website. It explains why gays should support us. (38:40 to 40:12)
Party deadlines.
Rookiee: is the reason why people call you a paedophile party because you are involved in the Martijn association? Marthijn: both Norbert and I wrote the party manifesto, but we wanted two other non-paedophiles to join us. We located candidates, but they were too afraid to accept our offer. Rookiee: what are your next steps as far as public communication? Marthijn: we are available to discuss our manifesto content. Norbert: what we have done so far has been beneficial. One of our goals has been met, namely to initiate debate on topics that have been neglected for way too long. The lack of signatures mentioned earlier is a big problem. We need a minimum of 570 by 10 October to participate in the elections in late November. Without these, we try again four years later. Perhaps people should sign purely to uphold democracy given politicians are trying to destroy us. (40:13 to 47:04)
Defence against fascism.
Rookiee: how do you address the negative perception? It may get worse. Norbert: it cannot get any worse. You have to give it a try, show your face and demonstrate you are a human being. If you do nothing, the concentration camps will be built for all of us. Prisons are already concentration camps with suicides and murders. Rookiee: historically other minority groups have suffered. Norbert: that is why we have to speak up. By calling paedophiles monsters, they are winning. Once they win, another minority group will fall victim. If we stop asking for more, they will take everything. Other minority groups should be supporting our right to speak up. Rookiee: I wish you the best and hope things improve for you. If you are seen as a paedophile party, is that such a bad thing? Marthijn: no-one will vote for a single-issue party. (47:05 to 52:56)
Coming out.
Marthijn: Rookiee, why don’t you use your real name here? Do you support people emerging from the closet? Rookiee: I am afraid to. Marthijn: when one person comes out, then you get a lot of hate mail. When hundreds do it, there is less to be afraid of. Rookiee: I am not ashamed of admitting I am afraid, and of having insufficient funds for a safety net. Child lovers in the US are not robust enough to stand on their own two feet. Our community is in disarray. The majority can barely acknowledge their own sexuality. Norbert: I disagree. The majority know exactly who and what they are. Rookiee: the majority do not consider belonging to a community, or having a voice. Marthijn: people must form a group to change their situation. Rookiee: anonymity allows people to conceal who they are. The only way they can come out is online. Norbert: no, this is the only one they choose to come out. Marthijn: a lot of child lovers are in hiding. They are afraid when we are so open, to the point that they are against us. (52:57 to 01:01:04)
KP neuters activism.
Norbert: well we are out there doing interviews, but who else does the same in their own language? Nobody. Rookiee: the lack of face to face communication is a problem, also dissident opinions. Norbert: we do want changes in our society to allow sexual expression by children, including loving physical intimacy with older persons if and when they choose to. Everyone in our community should agree with that. Rookiee: some do, some don’t. Some people say we have sufficient and don’t need more rights. Marthijn: they are lying to themselves. Rookiee: in my opinion, there is no boy love community. Norbert: there is! People who look at pictures don’t speak up because they know the police will pursue them. They are happy and egoistic. Rookiee: they are living in a fantasy world. How far will we allow ourselves to be pushed around before the elastic snaps? (01:01:05 to 01:05:54)
Waffle: (09:33 to 14:10)
Abraxas story.
Rookiee: what have you been doing since episode 3? Abraxas: I haven’t had a boyfriend in twenty-five years or so; a very boring life. Rookiee: when you say boyfriends, you mean any age, right? Abraxas: yes, ‘boy’ in the literal sense. A mutual loving relationship like the one I had where we were very happy together. Unfortunately, other people were not so happy. Rookiee: so you did your time, and in some ways, you are still doing your time. Abraxas: yes, due to the pariah laws in this country. (14:11 to 15:26)
Mechanics of fascism I.
Abraxas: A link to a really good article was sent to me. It is on counterpunch.org and called ‘sexual fascism in progressive America’. The author goes by the pseudonym Pariah. It discusses how fascist states need to have a subculture to create societal pariahs, a despised subgroup that makes society feel better about itself, one to fear and to hate, whose very existence demands totalitarian state apparatus of surveillance and control applied to it. (15:27 to 17:04)
John Hopkins statistics.
Fred Berlin from John Hopkins University sex disorders clinic, cites 0.1% of all sex offences in the US involve kidnap, rape, torture and murder. Less than 10% of all sex offenders re-offend, but recidivism is given as an excuse to impose draconian measures upon release. Around thirty children annually are abducted, raped and murdered by strangers, but three thousand are murdered in the family home by parents or family members. The media make it seem as if stranger abduction events happen all the time, but coverage of child murders in the home is minimal. Facts do not matter when hysteria prevails, and the media can make money from selling stories that reinforce societal fears. (17:05 to 18:46)
NBC’s schizophrenic dateline.
Abraxas: it’s about ratings. For example, NBC’s Dateline show ‘to catch a predator’, recently did a piece on May K Letourneau and her husband Vili. This was a fairly balanced program, considering the crap Dateline usually broadcasts. I thought how schizophrenic of Dateline to treat the topic in such polarised ways across its shows. (18:47 to 19:48)
Are mid-teens children?
Abraxas: there was a case of a 21yo who had arranged to meet a supposed 15yo. Why should that even be a problem? I don’t understand that. He was obviously gay, and the teen was obviously not pre-pubescent. I know what the ages of consent are in this country and they are ridiculously high. Rookiee: in many other countries around the world, the 15yo would be an adult. (19:49 to 21:05)
Entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer.
Rookiee: talking to Dylan Thomas from Boy Chat and SQR. We discussed a few ideas, such as: devising one sets of rules defining adulthood and childhood and fully-functioning citizenship requirements within a given society. In an agrarian society, a child entering puberty is expected to work on the land with adults. In an industrial society, adult responsibilities come later, once a certain education level is reached. In this information age, technological aptitude is reducing the age at which a child acquires adult capabilities. Justin Berry, the entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer, is a case in point. Do you think this phenomenon will be a catalyst for change? Abraxas: I see a modern world dominated by moralist anti-sex diktats promoting bigotry and fear, all courtesy of a US axis of evil burrowing its way into the affairs of foreign countries and cultures, where it has no business to be. In my opinion, I don’t see it getting any better any time soon; I see it getting worse. (21:06 to 26:04)
Different cultures comparison.
Rookiee: I have nothing against marijuana use, and don’t consider it to be a moral offence to consume it. Talking to Lindsay Ashford about this topic, he called the US the evil empire. Abraxas: can’t disagree with that. Rookiee: he was in Prague for ten years, but moved on to South America. He found it better in many ways. Attitudes were far more accepting, more open, more hospitable, and less fearful. He told a story of walking down a street one evening when he saw a little girl in her home. They began to make faces at each other. The parents saw what was happening, and before he knew it, he had been invited into their home for a meal and wine. If this scenario played out in the US, someone would have called the police, and the media would have had a ball reporting on it. (26:05 to 28:36)
Bleeding over process.
Abraxas: not only is the US government influencing other governments, country borders are becoming all American. Mexican border towns are becoming victims to this bleeding-over process where American media, American money and American politics infect foreign soils. Mexican society is inexorably becoming an extension of American society. (28:37 to 29:45)
Waffle: (29:46 to 30:51)
PNVD.
Rookiee: I talked to Norbert de Jonge from PNVD last night. I wanted to know what was going on, following their discussions within Pedologue episodes 22 and 22.5. Norbert wanted to dispel several myths. First, Ad van den Berg did not go into hiding. He was forced out of his home by vigilantes, egged on by the media. Second, their PNVD party is not a paedophile party. The have stated what they are on their website and in episodes 22 and 23. The situation with PNVD continues to be fluid and transitional. Abraxas: in a democratic society, political parties must be given a voice no matter how outrageous. I have been following this topic on boy lover and girl lover boards. One thing that really irritates me is people who jump on them and demean them, or comment that it is a ‘no hope’ party. Seems to me we have a bucket full of negativity courtesy of the outside world; why should we also have to put up with hate from our own community. It really amazes me that this happens. It makes me question whether such people are genuine child lovers, or government agency trolls trying to destroy us. Let us try to get behind PNVD and support them. One comment I read on the boards was from someone who compared PNVD to NAMBLA. Such a comment could only have come from law enforcement; no child lover would have made it. (30:52 to 38:59)
Chat board problems.
Rookiee: do you think the boards are being splintered by law enforcement. Abraxas: yes, undoubtedly. Not just that, but resistance from self-righteous paedophiles who are dead against contact of any sort with a child. I am of the opinion that boards are useless as far as getting anything done is concerned. Most of those complaining don’t do a damn thing. I joined a board that had members that were decided on changing the world. Unfortunately I got kicked off that board, because of my criminal record. Rookiee: it is just not possible to create a child love community without child lover members who have fallen fowl of the law at some point in their life. (39:00 to 44:42)
Entrapment.
Abraxas: I can never figure out how someone can be convicted for propositioning a minor, when there is no minor involved. In reality, you are propositioning an adult who is pretending to be a minor. In any other crime, it would be entrapment and thrown out of court. It is amazing what law enforcement get away with regarding our sexual minority group. Rookiee: no crime has been committed here. We are talking about the law and commenting on it. We are not advocating illegal activity. (44:43 to 47:45)
Mechanics of fascism II.
Abraxas: more from Pariah in CounterPunch. Estimates of more than thirty-five thousand children and adolescents convicted of sex offences and being required to register. But children are said to be asexual and have no interest in sex whatsoever. Rookiee: I am in favour of the state charging a minor as an adult. If they are considered to be adults, then the age of consent would need to be lowered accordingly. Abraxas: you would think so, however, you are dealing with people who are illogical and have no common sense. Rookiee: the same people would punish us just for having a paedosexuality. (47:46 to 49:56)
Pedologues under attack.
Rookiee: are you familiar with Stacey Harp from Christian Active Media? She attacked the boy love blog I administer called ‘Pedastria, the boy love revival’. Stacey Harp says ‘the fact this blog exists is equivalent to when a child comes to its mother and says they are being molester, then the mother doesn’t do anything about it’. Abraxas: where do they get these analogies from? Rookiee: she riled her fan-base up and got them to pound on the blog. Suddenly the blog was gone. Someone had erased it. It was down for a while, but it is now back up with twenty-five bloggers, so we are louder than before. I am now under attack from vigilantes and hackers here. I have reviewed Google’s terms of service, and I see that I am protected from such attacks. Abraxas: such people feel they are immune from criticism and that society is on their side because tacit approval is given to behave illegally. Rookiee: I am well aware of high profile I have become. I found an FBI document that states Pedologues is a high profile paedophile website, whatever that means. They are shadow-criminalising me when I have done absolutely nothing wrong. In doing these podcasts, I have actually learnt a lot about myself. (49:57 to 55:44)
9yo sex offenders.
In episode 20, talking with Old Saint Nick from IPCE, he said it’s not just a right that children should have sex, it is an actual physical biological need. It is society that has the problem, not us. Abraxas: what concerns me is those people who write laws that incriminate 9 year old kids and turn them into sex offenders, were doubtless guilty of the very same ‘offence’ at the very same age. All of us need to recognize who we are and what we are. There are very few child lovers out there who have not suffered to some degree in their lives because of what they are. (55:45 to 01:03:31)
Pedologues Episode 27 (3 September 2006) Rookiee, and Joe Cool.
Boylover.net hierarchy.
Joe: I am executive director of boylover.net. The board creators were Boylover, Loren and ELW. They have since resigned due to real life commitments. Loren wrote the rules and designed the board. Rookiee: what is the board hierarchy? Joe: buddy team does member support and fellowship. Mod team does board legality and rule enforcement. Senior team oversees mod and buddy teams, and advises on what should be upheld. Mod and buddy managers manage teams. Admin has specific focus on member security, registrations, and technical issues. There are two directors. We intend to add directors and create a committee. (01:22 to 11:14)
Board closed to public.
Rookiee: when I first joined, I found it friendly and all forums were open. I didn’t have to register to view them. Now, one has to join to see any board. Joe: yes, unfortunately. With new software, the boards will open to the public. Currently, the existing server cannot handle the load. (11:15 to 12:09)
DDOS attacks.
Joe: when we were originally attacked by somethingawful.com, we figured they were using repeated denial of service (DDOS) attacks on individual member pages. Attacks were stopped by closing the board to membership only. We are DDOS’d on an almost daily basis. Rookiee: once you go public with your new server, how will you combat attacks? Custom application code will defend us, so the system will be more secure and robust. (12:10 to 14:37)
Press coverage.
Joe: everyone but us has been in the news. Main stream media ignores us because we are too big. We have 600,000 hits per month plus 35,000 registered users, 15% of which are active. Rookiee: how do you avoid being sued? Joe: we are just too big, plus we are not a corporation. (14:38 to 21:05)
Moderator behaviour.
Rookiee: your mods are strict in what can be shown. How many moderators are there? Joe: roughly 80 including admin; all staff is over 108. Rookiee: how do you select and manage your staff? Joe: we take level-headed people plus we are not political. Staff must stay neutral, although mod emotions can get in the way. They are tasked with making decisions based on our rules. For the most part it works. (21:06 to 23:50)
Training.
Rookiee: what training exists? Joe: in mod interviews, sample scenarios are provided. We pose questions, like ‘what would you do in this case?’ Before they start, there is a training room with threads with breaches. We see how they deal with these. Coaching is given if threads are not handled correctly. (23:51 to 24:34)
Illegal post handling.
What happens with illegal posts? We abide by US law. For border line posts, a member has to self-edit. If they refuse, we edit or move it to a ‘cellar’ that only mods and admins can access. For clear breaches, they go to the cellar. If it is a top-five-rule breach, the member faces suspension. Rookie: are mods aware of what constitutes illegal pornography? Joe: yes. (24:35 to 26:34)
Legal obligations.
Rookiee: do you report members? What happens to the picture? Joe: I am not sure what Dutch law is regarding a host server receiving such a photo, but we would destroy it. We do not report members as we have no means to trace them. Rookie: but IP addresses are obtainable. Joe: not if a proxy is used. Member information is confidential. Rookiee: who is liable? Joe: the member. A court case ten years ago established this. We are a foreign company, so Dutch laws apply. We are subject to US law for the boards the public can browse. If a foreign agency became involved, they would have to go through Interpol. If that happened, we would seek legal advice to protect member confidentiality. (26:35 to 31:39)
Internet jurisdiction.
Rookiee: an international treaty was recently ratified by the senate. If a Netherlands host breaks US law, the FBI can petition them to extradite people. Joe: all I can say is good luck for getting cooperation. Rookiee: several countries cooperate with this treaty. I hear legal and civil rights groups are angry, as it removes state sovereignty. Joe: no-one should have jurisdiction over the internet. If we regulate information, what’s next? Burning books outside libraries? What thoughts should be outlawed? The US with its Christian morality is so bull-headed, it thinks it can dominate all. (31:40 to 34:09)
International government.
Rookiee: we are headed towards international government. Joe: as a technical computer guy, I feel it should be treated as open source, and yet they propose to outlaw zeros and ones. Eventually, the internet will grow into its own society and will drive itself. I look at my own government and see gross inefficiency. They need to keep their hands off the internet. (34:10 to 38:29)
Internet censorship.
Joe: some countries regulate the internet. Saudi Arabia folk cannot access our site for example. China hugely regulates the internet. I would prefer my private company controlling my access to the internet, rather than my government overseeing all I do. Rookiee: when the constitution was ratified in 1778 or 1779, the bill of rights stipulated government cannot interfere with citizen’s freedoms. What if private corporations tell you ‘no, our policy prevents us hosting your content’? Joe: this happened to us. We went through six hosts in seven months, costing us $4000. As hosts received complaints and saw their networks DDOS’d, they dropped us. We bought our own server in Holland. This opened doors for us. Rookiee: you are still at the mercy of corporations. Joe: I don’t see government being any better. Rookiee: Free Spirits have their own ISP and are independent. Joe: we found a data centre willing to host us and sell us band width. (38:29 to 42:41)
Federal vs State.
Rookiee: what if The Netherlands is subjected to ‘Bush control’? Joe: then we are fucked. Rookiee: the world sees the US as a bully. Joe: the Federal government has gone astray. Originally, control was 95% state and 5% federal. That has flipped. Citizens are totally out of touch. Government wants citizens to remain stupid. Rookiee: as I got into podcasting, I found corporations limited my freedom of speech. Joe: freedom of speech doesn’t exist anymore. I was arrested for saying ‘asshole’ and ‘bullshit’ to a security officer. I got the case dismissed, but I had to post $1200 bail. We are the laughing stock of the world. Free speech my ass. (42:42 to 50:42)
Child pornography.
Joe: re free speech, the child pornography topic is one of hot debate. Once information is online, it is impossible to get rid of. Why spend millions of dollars removing something that is there forever? Child pornography possession crime is thought crime. Rookiee: some say abuse is propagated by creating demand for it. Joe: supply and demand only works in a capitalist society where tangible and renewable assets exist. Rookiee: others say merely viewing child pornography is illegal. Joe: most people do not differentiate between viewing and possession. Mere possession harms no-one. The US government is at war with inanimate objects. (50:43 to 59:10)
US intelligence gathering.
Joe: intelligence agencies have this great philosophy: ‘if only we can gather enough intelligence and databases cross-referenced to each other, then we will find terrorists and fix the problem’. It is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous. There is no solution to preventing terrorism, drugs, or child pornography. Law enforcement fixates on problems here and abroad, but have no way to solve them. Rookiee: terrorists and paedophiles have become synonymous, why is this? Joe: every society needs a scapegoat to hate. Fifty years ago it was communists and homosexuals. (59:11 to 01:02:54)
Community political responsibility
Rookiee: what do you do with people who openly talk about harming children? Joe: people should exercise restraint and consider how they are perceived by saying it. They should ask: ‘am I incriminating myself, am I doing something illegal, am I putting others in jeopardy’. That is a good place to draw the line. Rookiee: I am concerned for our community. Gays back in the 1970s had to shape up to further their cause, to gain protected status plus DSM exemption. We should be doing that. Joe: do we have a political responsibility? Yes, but I don’t see things getting better. I look at NAMBLA and see the public perception of it equating with man-boy sex. They have hindered more than helped us. Rookiee: the lewd comments we make, imply we are a threat to children. Joe: if we are to gain some acceptance, we need to distance ourselves from the sexual issue. Rookiee: politically, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Are we perverts? Joe: yes. (01:02:55 to 01:11:17)
Casualties of repression.
Joe: many new people to our community have never expressed themselves sexually, or talked to anyone else, especially not in a positive way. They come into our fold like kids in a candy store. The board gives them that opportunity. It is difficult to moderate them until they are confident with whom they are. Rookiee: the repression of our sexuality causes us to be this way. Joe: in many ways, yes. (01:11:18 to 01:14:40)
Benefit of boards.
Rookiee: society would say: ‘boards promote child abuse’. Joe: I don’t see it that way. I believe they help individuals cope and find themselves. I realise boards do not help us in the eyes of society. I found boards when I was 17. I considered myself to be a monster back then. After six months, I realised I wasn’t. I was normal, and, through no fault of my own, had this attraction. I cannot control my attraction, but I can and do control my actions. Rookiee: what do you say to those claiming boards incite people to commit illegal acts? Joe: they are entitled to their own opinion. Opinions are like ass holes; everyone has one. There are some people who are so bigoted and prejudiced they will always think the way they do, no matter what you say. (01:14:41 to 01:25:56)
Pedologues Episode 28 (8 September 2006) Rookiee, Chelsea, Mom and James.
Introductions.
Chelsea: I am 13yo, and this is my mom. Mom: hi. Rookiee: I am stunned. Last night I was introduced to two people who apparently know a paedophile, and don’t give a shit. (01:49 to 03:21)
Rescuing James.
Rookiee: how did you meet James? Mom: in the street. I realised he was all over the place and I thought I could improve his world. I got him better housing. At that time, I knew his background, and knew he had done penance to society. I also knew the young girl concerned and her mom from way back. Rookiee: you were aware he was low. Mom: yes, he was in a bad place. I knew he deserved way better. I reached out and he accepted my assistance. Rookiee: you knew his character? Mom: yes. Rookiee: for our listeners, James featured on episode 24 with John. (03:22 to 06:43)
Chelsea.
Rookiee: Chelsea, how do you get on with James; you seem to like him? Chelsea: he’s fun. We play card games. Rookiee: you know about him, and you’re cool with it? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: some people would say he’s taking advantage of you, grooming you and will turn you into one of his slaves. You have two eyes and a brain, what would you say to them? Chelsea: I think it is retarded to judge a person without even knowing them. Just because someone thinks differently doesn’t mean they are weird. Rookiee: ‘thinks differently’? Chelsea: well he is a paedophile. Rookiee: what does a paedophile think? Chelsea: as I know it, he likes much younger girls. Rookiee: what’s different about him and a person who likes someone your mom’s age? Chelsea: well he cares about young girls, and wouldn’t want for them to be hurt. Mom: Chelsea, what makes a paedophile bad? Chelsea: someone who hurt others. A good paedophile is one that cares. Mom: there is good and bad in all people. I prefer the term predator paedophile; they don’t care about a child’s welfare, feelings or emotions. I understand all children are sexual to some level. Some people will exploit that, but that is not the norm. (06:44 to 10:19)
Parents as true paedophiles.
Mom: I wish all parents were true paedophiles. This world would be better if children were treated with respect, listened to, and given quality time. Rookiee: do you mean parents that are sexually attracted to kids. Mom: I am talking about showing care and interest. Chelsea: the ‘James’ kind of paedophile. Mom: if a mother is truly interested, she will dote on and spend time with her kids. If not, children will be treated like puppets. (10:20 to 11:56)
Hysteria and fear.
Rookiee: why do people hate paedophilia? Why don’t they want them anywhere near their kids? Mom: media hysteria. Parents are told not to let a child be unaccompanied until they are 18. ‘How dare you let your child travel on a bus on its own, with all those creeps and problems out there.’ Rookiee: is the fear warranted? Mom: it’s no more risky than a woman going on a date with a man. Education is power. With mine, there is nothing we don’t talk about. The topic of paedophilia is just one more item on the list. (11:57 to 15:09)
Openness and education.
Rookiee: you knew about paedophilia before James came along? Mom: yes, both good and bad. Rookiee: were you abused as a youngster? Mom: yes. Rookiee: did you have a consensual relationship? Mom: yes. There were two different people. I got no education from my mother; my home life was dysfunctional. I was sexualised by the bad experience and therefore receptive to the second, especially as it was someone who cared, plus I looked up to him. Rookiee: he allowed you free will? Mom: yes. By then, I was ready, and I knew he would never hurt me. I still have contact with him. Rookiee: people may say: ‘but this is why you allow your child to be put in harm’s way.’ Mom: as our house is open for communication, she would talk to me. We are a team. Rookiee: I have a 12yo friend, Aqua, who is gay and has been on Pedologues several times. His mom treats him as you treat Chelsea. Both of you are open when talking about yourself and your experiences. Aqua has been online for a number of years already, and is technically and socially savvy. If some creep makes advances online, he is sufficiently empowered to say ‘get lost’. (15:10 to 20:52)
Flirtatious girls.
Chelsea: Mom said the only reason James comes to my house to play cards and stuff, was because he was a paedophile. One time, I danced a little, fixed my hair up, and put a shorter shirt on, so I learnt how to use my powers over him. Mom: it was an absolutely priceless moment. Ironically, she was unaware of the effect she was having. Rookiee: it’s probably innate when women act like that in front of a man. Mom: what about you? Rookiee: I really don’t know. Walking down a street, I am more intent looking out for boys, I have to admit. Maybe it is because boys have more scope to act naturally, whereas girls are a little less genuine. (20:53 to 25:25)
Hypocritical society.
Mom: parents put girls on a pedestal by saying: ‘Aren’t they beautiful? Aren’t they sexy?’ Trophy girls are urged to model skimpy bikinis, but, in the same breath they say: ‘don’t you dare look’. The media is guilty of prostituting photos of girls dressed-up and posing as models, turning them into adults before time. Rookiee: boy photos are of boys just being themselves. Mom: for girls, the latest fad is hip-hugger jeans. The front ... Wow! No room for a zipper, and don’t dare look behind else you will realise Plumber’s Butt has become popular. Rookiee: isn’t it better for people to be more open and exhibitionistic? Go to Africa and virtually nothing is worn. (25:26 to 29:06)
Chastity.
Mom: a boy should have sufficient sex education before considering marriage. What about a girl? My dad said: ‘there are two types of girl in this world: the ones you marry, and the ones you have fun with. Which do you want to be?’ By the time she is twenty she should still be a virgin. Rookiee: chastity trumps all. Society doesn’t allow a girl to control her own destiny. It either over-protects them or exploits them. (29:07 to 30:59)
Express yourself.
Mom: allowing children to speak their minds is important. I did this, but my family objected. They felt the child was talking back. The difference is a tough one for a parent to navigate. Rookiee: it is ironic to see parents managing children as objects with no free will. Mom: mothers may as well say: ‘I have a right to raise my child my way, after all, I was the one who spread my legs, so she is mine.’ Rookiee: what is the difference between talking back and talking to? Mom: talking back is: ‘no, I am not going to do that!’ in response to ‘I want you to do that right now.’ In this scenario, negativity is promoted at the expense of respect. (31:00 to 33:59)
Mother-daughter relationship.
Rookiee: what do you think of Mom? Chelsea: she is crazy. She is open, and that is cool. Rookiee: would she stop some guy taking advantage of you? Chelsea: of course. She wouldn’t just let it happen. Rookiee: if James took advantage, she would step up and say get the fuck away from my kid. Chelsea: yes. Mom: have I put you at risk by bringing James into our world? Chelsea: you didn’t know everything about him when you first met him, but you knew he was safe and nothing untoward would happen. Mom: does James ever creep you out? Be honest: Chelsea: yes, but it is only in joking manner. I know it is not serious. (34:00 to 36:31)
James and girls.
Rookiee: there is a girl lover called Lindsay Ashford, who is ‘out’. When he encounters a girl, he makes funny faces at them. The girl just loves it. James, is that common among girl lovers? James: in my case, I make funny faces because I run out of things to say. Rookiee: what is your general age of attraction? James: 8 to 10. Rookiee: Appy from SQR mentioned he was into boys before the age of puberty. He said teens were like a different species. James: as soon as they get bumps, they are too scary to deal with. When I first met Chelsea, she was 11 and I thought she was 14. (36:32 to 41:51)
Waffle: (41:52 to 45:20)
Sex.
Rookiee: let’s go completely politically incorrect and talk sex. What do you know about sex Chelsea? Chelsea: ‘when a mummy and a daddy really love each other ...’ Mom: ‘there’s a stork’. Rookiee: Chelsea, are you into older guys? Chelsea: I like guys my age. Rookiee: would you consider yourself straight? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: are you attracted to James? Chelsea: no. Rookiee: what do you see James as? Chelsea: he is like a neighbour. Rookiee: so you have no desire for a relationship with him. James: do you have any friends that are into older gentlemen, and might find me cute? Chelsea: I do know someone called Ella who is 16yo. James: that’s scary. (45:21 to 50:54)
Canada’s AOC laws
Rookiee: the age of consent is set to be raised to 16yo in Canada. It has been 14yo for the past century or so. As you near 14, how do you feel about that? Chelsea: If I was into all that stuff, I would be rather disappointed. I don’t care to be honest. Rookiee: are you capable of making up your own mind about having sex with someone. Chelsea: yes of course. If I wanted to, I would just do it. Rookiee: do you understand the ramifications, like sexually transmitted diseases. Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: do you feel prepared? Chelsea: no, I am not. I am just not into it. Rookiee: what if people claim you don’t have a mind of your own? Chelsea: well screw them! I have this big thing on my neck called a head, so I can think for myself. Mom: that is beautiful. I know 13yo kids with no history of abuse, no coercion, no grooming, but are totally interested in sex. Such kids would say: ‘I am going to do with my body what I want to’. Rookiee: will raising the consent age protect Chelsea more? Mom: no. Rookiee: will it make kids dumber as a result? Mom: no, it will have the opposite effect. It’s going to push the rebel button. ‘You say I can’t; well just let me show you.’ (50:55 to 56:51)
Hilarity: (56:52 to 01:00:32)
Pedologues Episode 29 (15 September 2006) Rookiee, Oh Hell Yeah, and Craig.
Gene therapy.
Rookiee: what you got to say? Oh Hell Yeah: SQR discussion about gene therapy the other night, and whether it should be used to remove specific defects before a child is born. All very well but people don’t think about potential Jurassic Park consequences. Diversity originates from genetic mutation. So, where does one draw the line? Rookiee: what if paedophiles get classified as genetically defective? Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! Rookiee: what if mature women can no longer conceive due to a fucked-up environment, and only pubescent can? If paedophiles had previously been removed from the gene-pool, and straights couldn’t get it up, then humanity would be completely screwed. (00:56 to 04:23)
Eradicate undesirables.
Craig: this genetic manipulation could go full Hitlerian where a dictator decrees: ‘dispose of all undesirables genetically. Oh Hell Yeah: they do that now by saying we are the undesirables and should be exterminated. I recall an episode of ‘Outer Limits’ where pubescent kids and younger were the only ones to survive a fertility-neutering toxin and where society decided to direct the kids to breed. You have no idea how much I would like this to happen. I would take this predicament and push it right into society’s face. Rookiee: there are good biological reasons why we are this way. Look how kids are treated in today’s society. They are starved of love and affection. Oh Hell Yeah: people prefer to be top dog. White man first slaughtered Red Indians for being inferior, then Blacks were inferior, then women were inferior, then homosexuals were inferior, now paedophiles are inferior. Those minorities now all have equal status. Same will be true of us in the future. It’s only a matter of time. (04:24 to 11:59)
Oh Hell Yeah introduction.
Rookiee: Oh Hell Yeah, you have been in the community since when? Oh Hell Yeah: 1999. What led me here was a story I read on Nifty.org called ‘Double Trouble’. It was a beautiful story and I cried my eyes out because it made me realise who I was. I knew I was a boy lover since I was an 8yo. I also knew if I told anyone about this, I would be hung, most likely by my own family, so I hid the story until I reached 19. The story was written by Boy Chills. Things have come to a sorry pass with a lot of the boards. Not too long ago, I became aware of SQR. I have also trawled through Nifty.org for diamonds in the rough. (12:00 to 14:33)
NAMBLA
Rookiee: besides the boards and a few activist sites, there is very little else available. Oh Hell Yeah: apart from NAMBLA making a stand only to be squished, most boy lovers are scared to organise. Rookiee: NAMBLA is made out to be only about sex, but that is not the case at all. Oh Hell Yeah: their website is out of date. Rookiee relates the period of time NAMBLA were around at a time when gays divorced themselves from chicken hawk behaviour. Around 1990, when gays forged ahead with their agenda, NAMBLA was still included on gay and lesbian coalitions. Law makers pointed this out, so NAMBLA ended up being removed from these coalitions. Essentially, the gays pushed the boy lover community into obscurity. Rookiee refers to the open nature of the meetings held by NAMBLA, and the undercover FBI entrapment, as discussed in episode 16. The absence of technical nous within the NAMBLA organisation meant the internet was not exploited to further activism. Even now they just produce magazines for their members. (14:34 to 23:05)
Activism reluctance.
Oh Hell Yeah: that’s the problem I see in the boy lover community. One group may speak out, then get told by some entity: ‘No!’ This forces them to relent. We need someone with fire to be indignant when told ‘No’. That person needs to confront their accusers, and tell them they are being lazy in not finding out more about the nature of paedophilia. The accuser also needs to be taken to task for hating someone they don’t even know. Rookiee: there are just not enough people willing to do this. Laws are becoming ludicrously draconian so no-one wants to take a risk. Individuals have to be whiter than white to undertake activism. Oh Hell Yeah: I don’t condone child porn, but I can understand why people have it. If a straight man is denied a woman, one of two things will happen. He either has to be a monk, or he is going to find an avenue of release. (23:06 to 27:59)
Brass eye.
Rookiee: Chris Morris, a UK satirist created and presented a ‘Paedogeddon’ special, aired in 2001, as part of the satirical Brass Eye tv series. It tackled paedophilia and the moral panic in parts of the British media. In character Morris said: ‘if you make something a problem, it will become a problem.’ Just because something doesn’t square with society, it doesn’t mean that something is wrong. It just means society is fucked up. Oh Hell Yeah: just because you are taught something is right, and everyone around you also tells you it is right, doesn’t mean to say it makes it right. (28:00 to 29:04)
Siding with the enemy.
Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee there are a lot of boy lovers out there who are teaming up with people like Stacy Harp, simply because it takes the spotlight off them. This is similar behaviour to that of the gay community ousting the boy lover community. (29:05 to 30:02)
Rookiee plays a clip from Paedogeddon: (30:03 to 31:29)
Inaccurate stereotyping.
Oh Hell Yeah: that brings up an interesting thing. People automatically assume that if you are a paedophile, you would want to jump on any child regardless of their age, and do it anywhere. Rookiee: it is called perception. It is not based in any reality. The media magnifies any instance of a boy lover misbehaving into a stereotype. Craig: the media call it predation. This has little to do with sexual attraction. (31:30 to 33:15)
Wikipedia and hypocrisy.
Rookiee: a ‘child love movement’ article got changed to ‘paedophilia activism’. I tried to explain to them this was an inaccurate name for the article. Their title communicated rape and murder, not love. They applied a negative connotation to the piece. An article on abortion has the title ‘pro-choice’. It doesn’t say ‘murdering babies’. It is like talking to a brick wall. Oh Hell Yeah: it is OK to accuse a whole minority group of being molesters, and simultaneously for a woman to spread her legs wide and dispose of multiple babies. After all, society will say in her defence, that is her body, therefore it is her choice. Rookiee: both are consistent with the idea that children are property. Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! The children of celebrities have become fashion accessories. They say we are using kids when in fact it is they that use kids. Rookiee: Hollywood parents pimp out their kids for profit. Ethics flew out of the window. (33:16 to 38:21)
What causes paedophilia?
Oh Hell Yeah: two most popular reasons. It is either a mental illness, or we chose it. Ask a gay adult whether he just woke up one day and chose his sexuality. Then ask him, whether he has an erection whenever he sees a good looking guy in the street. He will answer no to both questions. Rookiee: it’s never a conscious decision; it’s always what the body wants. (38:22 to 42:41)
Waffle: (42:42 to 43:42)
Paedophilia versus religion.
Oh Hell Yeah: no religious person can show you their ‘bible’ and tell you ‘this was handed to me by God who told me “this is my word, live by it”’. Rookiee: any Christian is against paedophiles. I have never heard Stacy Harp quote from her bible that paedophilia is bad. Crimes against children are covered by the bible, but nowhere does it denounce a loving, caring relationship. Oh Hell Yeah: human beings wrote these books, so why should we believe them when they tell us it is the word of God. Rookiee: there are too many contradictions between the testaments to believe they originated from a single God. Christians might say it is open to interpretation, but whose interpretation is correct. The other point, according to some, is that the bible should be taken literally. A further point raised by Old Saint Nick was that Mary was married off at 8yo. Is that not paedophilia? There was likely no demarcation between child and adult back then, particularly as life expectancy was so short. This suggests no concept of paedophilia existed at the time of Jesus. (43:43 to 52:52)
Immaculate conception.
Oh Hell Yeah: I recall a Muslim friend of mine trying to convert me to Islam. He asked: ‘what are they telling you when they say: ‘Jesus, the only begotten son of God’. The dictionary tells us ‘begotten’ implies a single part of sexual reproduction. If this is the case, how did Mary, who was a virgin, give birth? Rookiee: that means the Immaculate Conception was a paedophile relationship. How do we know how God views sex. Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee that those against boy lovers are devout Christians who hold to the idea that God is infallible, and yet the same people claim paedophilia is a mistake. This is an obvious contradiction. (52:53 to 55:14)
Waffle: (55:15 to 01:00:05)
Pedologues Episode 30 (18 September 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn, Norbert.
PNVD update.
Rookiee: we last talked in episode 22 on June 26. What has happened since? Marthijn: we have had a lot of media attention. Some political parties are trying to eradicate us. They want our party to be made illegal. This has prompted a court case, but we are still a legal party. (00:58 to 02:51)
Media interest.
Norbert: we appeared on tv and have done interviews. Focus was not on issues in our manifesto, rather on the topics of paedophilia and child sexuality, and our private lives. They parade us as freaks for entertainment. This just reinforces public prejudice. Rookiee: they are keen to maximise shock value. Norbert: some of the feedback expressed surprise we actually exist. Marthijn: we hope to be given air time to discuss our political program in a less hysterical, more mature way. (02:52 to 07:52)
Court cases.
Norbert: the first case involved a group of people determined to make us illegal. The judge ruled we had a basic right to exist. Our first win enabled us to continue. The second case related to my university refusing me access onto campus. A hearing was conducted at the university, and I lost. We intend to fight this decision at a higher level. Rookiee: what were the grounds for the decision? Norbert: the law says you have to state you disagree with the university decision. They then establish a commission to reconsider their original decision. We did this, but it had no effect. (07:53 to 10:39)
The Hague.
Marthijn: we attended a press conference at The Hague right next to the prime minister’s office. He gave his weekly press conference. I said “Can I ask you a question?” He responded: “No, I don’t have time.” He didn’t like us being in The Hague right next to his office. We emailed every Dutch political party asking them to condemn the hate mail we received. We received no responses. (10:39 to 12:20)
570 signatures of support.
Norbert: a Dutch documentary maker is following us, so some events are on film. One such is us on Utrecht streets asking people to sign and support our right to be election candidates. We need around 570 signatures to make this happen. Far right parties claim that this will be a list of paedophiles, so people are afraid to sign. We have around 100 signatures, but need more. Marthijn: the media is failing to condemn right wing groups, so they are failing to uphold democracy. Norbert: such groups say freedom of speech is irrelevant because these are paedophiles. Rookiee: if any unwanted anomaly appears, it gets ostracised, silenced and made to go away. (12:21 to 18:39)
Pro-paedophilia document.
Marthijn: twenty years ago in Holland, similar opinions were aired politically. Rookiee: now public perceptions are different. Norbert: we have to remind people of political history. We published a several-hundred page document, discussing paedosexuality, child sexuality, and the pro-paedophilia laws established in the past. This document is simply being ignored. (18:40 to 20:24)
Incestuous media and government.
Rookiee: what has changed since then? Marthijn: newspapers seek to maximise circulation. If they publish a story readers may not like, potential revenue is lost. Decline in media objectivity began in the 1990s. Politically correct main-stream media and government are joined at the hip. The smaller media are more receptive, and have published interesting articles. Rookiee: it sounds similar to the podcasting world. Corporate media prevents alternative views from being heard. Marthijn: if a mainstream editor authors an alternative view, he lasts no more than a few seconds. (20:25 to 27:42)
Damages our image.
Norbert: we are trying to open a bank account. None want us as customers. We have been forced to contact ten banks, asking the same question. The same thing goes with internet providers. They claim it is to do with public perception, which is code for you will destroy our image. (27:43 to 28:39)
PNVD website.
Rookiee: if anyone wants to find out about your work, where are you? Marthijn: our website is pnvd.nl, but it is all in Dutch. About one-quarter has been translated; people are working on it. Rookiee: what interviews have you done? Norbert: visit our website and select ‘weblock’; that will take you to ‘films’. The interviews are mainly in English as many non-Dutch countries have sought us. Marthijn: the US pays no attention to us. (28:40 to 31:34)
Paedophilia is hate speech.
Rookiee: my podcast was initially included on podcast alley, but blackmail threats were sent to the Dutch entrepreneur, Adam Curry, because of this. They wanted Pedologues references to be removed. A Nazi white supremacist podcast was also a target. Threats warned he would be reported to outlets such as CNN for broadcasting hate speech. Adam then published a neutral statement on his own podcast saying he reserved the right to exclude any podcast for any reason. He emphasised his liberal Dutch upbringing and the value of free speech. It is ironic that paedophiles would have been systematically sent to concentration camps along with Jews. Norbert: we were similarly accused of being a threat to democracy. It is projection. Marthijn: there was a famous guy in The Netherlands willing to create Star of David insignia patches for our court appearance. Instead we decided upon smiley patches with the words ‘Friends of Children’. Rookiee: that was unlikely to have had the same effect though. Marthijn: the public are really surprised when we mention the Jews in connection with our experiences. They say we are shameless for doing so. They really have no clue what is going on. (31:35 to 38:39)
Support from homosexuals?
Marthijn: I hope the Jews and homosexuals out there can make the comparison. Rookiee: are homosexuals sympathetic or do they side with the general public? Marthijn: they are more tolerant for sure, but they fear this will bring them into disrepute once more, so they remain in the shadows. In the media, gays are dead set against us. Norbert: there is a very good article called ‘defence of paedosex equates to gay cause’. It is on the Martijn website. It explains why gays should support us. (38:40 to 40:12)
Party deadlines.
Rookiee: is the reason why people call you a paedophile party because you are involved in the Martijn association? Marthijn: both Norbert and I wrote the party manifesto, but we wanted two other non-paedophiles to join us. We located candidates, but they were too afraid to accept our offer. Rookiee: what are your next steps as far as public communication? Marthijn: we are available to discuss our manifesto content. Norbert: what we have done so far has been beneficial. One of our goals has been met, namely to initiate debate on topics that have been neglected for way too long. The lack of signatures mentioned earlier is a big problem. We need a minimum of 570 by 10 October to participate in the elections in late November. Without these, we try again four years later. Perhaps people should sign purely to uphold democracy given politicians are trying to destroy us. (40:13 to 47:04)
Defence against fascism.
Rookiee: how do you address the negative perception? It may get worse. Norbert: it cannot get any worse. You have to give it a try, show your face and demonstrate you are a human being. If you do nothing, the concentration camps will be built for all of us. Prisons are already concentration camps with suicides and murders. Rookiee: historically other minority groups have suffered. Norbert: that is why we have to speak up. By calling paedophiles monsters, they are winning. Once they win, another minority group will fall victim. If we stop asking for more, they will take everything. Other minority groups should be supporting our right to speak up. Rookiee: I wish you the best and hope things improve for you. If you are seen as a paedophile party, is that such a bad thing? Marthijn: no-one will vote for a single-issue party. (47:05 to 52:56)
Coming out.
Marthijn: Rookiee, why don’t you use your real name here? Do you support people emerging from the closet? Rookiee: I am afraid to. Marthijn: when one person comes out, then you get a lot of hate mail. When hundreds do it, there is less to be afraid of. Rookiee: I am not ashamed of admitting I am afraid, and of having insufficient funds for a safety net. Child lovers in the US are not robust enough to stand on their own two feet. Our community is in disarray. The majority can barely acknowledge their own sexuality. Norbert: I disagree. The majority know exactly who and what they are. Rookiee: the majority do not consider belonging to a community, or having a voice. Marthijn: people must form a group to change their situation. Rookiee: anonymity allows people to conceal who they are. The only way they can come out is online. Norbert: no, this is the only one they choose to come out. Marthijn: a lot of child lovers are in hiding. They are afraid when we are so open, to the point that they are against us. (52:57 to 01:01:04)
KP neuters activism.
Norbert: well we are out there doing interviews, but who else does the same in their own language? Nobody. Rookiee: the lack of face to face communication is a problem, also dissident opinions. Norbert: we do want changes in our society to allow sexual expression by children, including loving physical intimacy with older persons if and when they choose to. Everyone in our community should agree with that. Rookiee: some do, some don’t. Some people say we have sufficient and don’t need more rights. Marthijn: they are lying to themselves. Rookiee: in my opinion, there is no boy love community. Norbert: there is! People who look at pictures don’t speak up because they know the police will pursue them. They are happy and egoistic. Rookiee: they are living in a fantasy world. How far will we allow ourselves to be pushed around before the elastic snaps? (01:01:05 to 01:05:54)
Re: Pedologues
Nice, this podcast is the turning point for me becoming pro-C. It showed me that pro-C pedos weren't a bunch of selfish pervs, and got me to research where the actual harm comes from after an adult+child sexual interaction (which of course is not from the interaction itself, assuming it's consensual).
I haven't listened to it in a while, but I've got all 30 episodes plus a bunch of other short bonus things.
I haven't listened to it in a while, but I've got all 30 episodes plus a bunch of other short bonus things.