Mu Analysis: Are MAPs queer?

[Jim Burton]

https://www.map-union.org/blog/are-maps-queer

The political right tends to think of MAPs (Minor-Attracted People) as the next part of a culture war involving LGBTQ+ rights. The political left often see MAPs as a 4chan hoax, meant to smear LGBTQ+ people. Both sides are mistaken, and in this article, we explain why.

[Harlan]

Brilliant article. It should be sent to all media and LGBTQ+ organizations. All they do is deny their history, self-hypnosis , maintain myths and lies, accusing and setting some against others.

[Jim Burton]

We've done a few updates, and yes, we sent it to the Percy Foundation, plus we are about to forward it to various gay media.

[Pharmakon]

This is a very good and useful piece, but the perspective seems to be almost exclusively that of male MAPs whose primary attraction is to boys. How about female MAPs who are attracted to boys and male MAPs who are attracted to girls? These members of our community will not find much in this article to help them decide if they should consider themselves "queer."

Perhaps some language could be added at least acknowledging this limitation.

In another post I suggested the Matt Gaetz nomination for attorney general might provide an opportunity for Mu to provide commentary that would garner attention, at least if the nomination gets as far as a Senate confirmation hearing. Such commentary would need to address the kinds of issues unique to primarily heterosexual MAPs that this article does not. If Gaetz has sex with a 17 yo female, or finds 17 yo females to be very sexy, does that make him a MAP? Many of us would think not -- that heterosexual males in general experience this type of attraction and do not think of it as making them part of a sexual minority.

But one political blog already has felt free to suggest that if Gaetz has regularly had sex with females barely less than 18 years old, that is enough to characterize him as a "serial pedophile":

If he indulged in cocaine and prostitutes, that's not great for America's top cop, but it might not be career-ending. After all, Marion Barry did the same, and he even got reelected afterward. On the other hand, if Gaetz is a serial pedophile, or something like that, then anyone who votes for him, only to have that come out AFTER he is confirmed, could have their own careers destroyed. https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/ ... v19-3.html

So whether Gaetz is or is not a MAP, pedophobic tropes are already being deployed against him. (The Mu article, in discussing Gayle Rubin's definition of queerness, also points out that one element is "non-monogamy.")

[Harlan]

... If Gaetz has sex with a 17 yo female, or finds 17 yo females to be very sexy, does that make him a MAP? Many of us would think not -- that heterosexual males in general experience this type of attraction and do not think of it as making them part of a sexual minority
...
So whether Gaetz is or is not a MAP, pedophobic tropes are already being deployed against him...

In an ideal world where there really was equality and tolerance there would be broad heterosexuality and broad homosexuality, without the additional division by age, because some people prefer an older partner, some a younger one, some prefer slimmer, some prefer thicker, there are many options for preference, but for some reason age was singled out as a separate group.

In this non-ideal world, based mainly on prejudices, a person and especially a politician will try to justify himself and support the established status quo as Peter Tetchell is doing now, and addition the politician might go on the attack against those to whom he was classified in order to whiten himself and prove his "normativity", as has already happened with gay politicians in the past

[Jim Burton]

We have added a definition of queerness from David Halperin.

This makes it clear that the queer identity is ultimately unrestricted, and our conclusion is that all MAPs can identify as queer, as each identity covered by the term "MAP" fulfills those criteria.

[Pharmakon]

Adding the quote from Halperin, while helpful, still leaves the discussion primarily oriented toward homosexual MAPs. For example, while pederasty is analyzed extensively (the term is used 23 times), the corresponding heterosexual practice, early marriage, is not discussed at all (the word "marriage" does not appear, though Halperin notes that "some married couples without children" could be considered queer). Both practices were once widespread, and both have now become similarly stigmatized.

While the dominant feminist discourse simply treats both pederasty and early marriage as child abuse, more nuanced critics of the practices may concede that both at one time served important social goals. Pederasty, for example, promoted male bonding at a time when the male group was required to fight wars or engage in other physically challenging and dangerous activities. Early marriage maximized the reproductive capacity of females at a time when childbirth was frequently fatal to mother, child, or both. From this perspective, stigmatizing minor attraction can plausibly be defended as better aligned with the social demands of a highly technological society in which boys and girls are being prepared for jobs that require extensive education rather than just for hunting, fighting, and childbearing.

Many girl lovers do in fact advocate reviving the practice of early marriage. Arguably (though probably not on Halperin's terms) early marriage is less relevant than pederasty to the question of whether MAPs are queer. But since the critique outlined above can be applied equally well to both practices, discussing one and ignoring the other both fails to counter easily anticipated objections and fails to address the perspective of many or most heterosexual MAPs.

[Aurelian]

Adding the quote from Halperin, while helpful, still leaves the discussion primarily oriented toward homosexual MAPs. For example, while pederasty is analyzed extensively (the term is used 23 times), the corresponding heterosexual practice, early marriage, is not discussed at all (the word "marriage" does not appear, though Halperin notes that "some married couples without children" could be considered queer). Both practices were once widespread, and both have now become similarly stigmatized.

While the dominant feminist discourse simply treats both pederasty and early marriage as child abuse, more nuanced critics of the practices may concede that both at one time served important social goals. Pederasty, for example, promoted male bonding at a time when the male group was required to fight wars or engage in other physically challenging and dangerous activities. Early marriage maximized the reproductive capacity of females at a time when childbirth was frequently fatal to mother, child, or both. From this perspective, stigmatizing minor attraction can plausibly be defended as better aligned with the social demands of a highly technological society in which boys and girls are being prepared for jobs that require extensive education rather than just for hunting, fighting, and childbearing.

Many girl lovers do in fact advocate reviving the practice of early marriage. Arguably (though probably not on Halperin's terms) early marriage is less relevant than pederasty to the question of whether MAPs are queer. But since the critique outlined above can be applied equally well to both practices, discussing one and ignoring the other both fails to counter easily anticipated objections and fails to address the perspective of many or most heterosexual MAPs.

Looks in fact a little more oriented for BLs (probably due to assimilation between early gay movement and pederasty), but it sure valid for GLs too. Probably queer theory isn't focused at all on adult-minor heterosexual marriages, but it's certainly critical of social construction of childhood and fantasies of childhood innocence that making children always at the danger of inappropriate behavior. In this sense GLs and BLs are on the same. Pretty much queer.

The sacralization of the Child thus necessitates the sacrifice of the queer. - Lee Edelman

[Lennon72]

Well, I guess this all depends on what you mean by "queer". At first, the definition of that word meant that you were a bit of an odd ball. Then it meant that you were were gay. Now, I don't even know what the fuck it is supposed to mean as it has taken on a whole different meaning. Well, I identify as a homosexual ( or gay ) . And to me, if you are a male who likes other males then you are gay ( regardless of AOA ). Simple as that. And if you are a female who likes other females then you are lesbian ( regardless of AOA ). And you like like both genders, you are bisexual ( regardless of AOA ). And, as pointed out in the article, may MAPS have been a part of LGBT history( even though the LGBT community now tries to sweep that under the rug simply for the sake of political expediency ).

[Harlan]

Well, I identify as a homosexual ( or gay ) . And to me, if you are a male who likes other males then you are gay ( regardless of AOA ). Simple as that. And if you are a female who likes other females then you are lesbian ( regardless of AOA ). And you like like both genders, you are bisexual ( regardless of AOA ). And, as pointed out in the article, may MAPS have been a part of LGBT history( even though the LGBT community now tries to sweep that under the rug simply for the sake of political expediency ).

Exactly. In a perfect world, that would be the case, but gays were afraid that they would be deprived of the acceptance they had achieved if they supported the rest of the community. Now it seems to me that they no longer remembered that MAP were part of the community. By throwing MAP under the bus, they themselves got stuck in the lies that tell about MAP. By driving NAMBLA out of ILGA, they lost the ability to hear the other side and now believe in a boogeyman behind the basement door.

Since the movement has split, we now have to work with what we have. Since they started calling other people on the sexual spectrum as Queer, there is no reason why we can't be part of the queer movement, no matter how much LGBT would like to deny it.