Building A Community

[SkippyDazzo]

Have been wondering about building a community, and being able to live our true life, with people of like mind. Without giving anyway any of my info, I will say that I work in international law. So am very familiar with the legal workings and process.

Would be a private, members only community. What would be a good location for such a community? Would anyone be willing to join, and help build the community?

Building our own community is the best option for us MAP's. Being able to use our right of self determination, which is protected by international law. Examples of this can be found in United Nations Resolutions 2625 and 3166. As well as the United Nation Declaration of Human Right's.

[PorcelainLark]

I've often mentioned Marie Byrd Land in these sorts of discussions because it's unclaimed by any country (terra nullius). It's very remote, in Antarctica. No other MAPs ever seem to be that interested, but I often daydream about setting up a colony there.

[SkippyDazzo]

There are lot's of locations a community can be built. Lot's of uninhabited islands, lots of remote land, ect. For example, places like Clipperton Island, Henderson Island, ect. Building in remote area's means more freedom, and being left alone by others. But it also means less access to outside resources. We would need to be self sufficient, and would be governing ourselves.

Would also need to have a focus on our culture, and not just a focus on the MAP issue. Make the AoC and laws around AoC, a background thing, not center stage so to speak. That way, it's accepted as part of the culture. And would be more acceptable to the outside world that way.

Take a look at religions like Islam, that do practice polygamy and child marriage. Yet the main focus is on the religion as a whole, not so much the different aspects of it. So can do it as a religious community. Doing it as a religious community, will also provide alot more freedom and protection, due to religious law's around the world.

[White sea Snow Elf]

I've often mentioned Marie Byrd Land in these sorts of discussions because it's unclaimed by any country (terra nullius). It's very remote, in Antarctica. No other MAPs ever seem to be that interested, but I often daydream about setting up a colony there.

If we want to build a MAP community in Mary Byrd Land, should we do it in the name of a scientific expedition? Or can we live there as a civilian community?
If possible, how will the funds come from? How should we obtain income to maintain the community? What should we do if we encounter hostility? Do we need to arm ourselves?

[PorcelainLark]

If we want to build a MAP community in Mary Byrd Land, should we do it in the name of a scientific expedition? Or can we live there as are civilian community?

Maybe you could use the pretext of a private scientific study. If it was tied to a university, you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick people that are loyal to the cause.

If possible, how will the funds come from? How should we obtain income to maintain the community? What should we do if we encounter hostility? Do we need to arm ourselves?

This is why I think you would have to aim towards being self-sufficient. Self-defense would be a reasonable thing to consider, however, given how remote and lacking in resources it is, there isn't much point in anyone going there for any other reason.

I imagine you would start by identifying where would be best for a camp, preferably ice-free ground such as you might find in the Ford Ranges, or on the Siple or Ruppert Coasts.

[Outis]

I'd be open minded about it. I don't know where would be best though.
I think it would need to be somewhere good for connections and transport rather than a very remote community, but with a constitution that was supportive of different sexualities. Maybe Asia?

[White sea Snow Elf]

I'd be open minded about it. I don't know where would be best though.
I think it would need to be somewhere good for connections and transport rather than a very remote community, but with a constitution that was supportive of different sexualities. Maybe Asia?

If you mean Southeast Asia, then we can try to overthrow a military junta, but the question is how we should gather.

[EOF]

Are you talking about creating some kind of autonomous zone, unbound by laws of any country? Doesn't that practically mean setting up our own state?

An Israel for pedophiles is a consolating thing to dream about, but it seems incredibly complex and nigh out of reach. Even if we do somehow manage to set up such a state, won't we get sanctioned to oblivion? Or, worse yet, get rectified Iraq-style by a multitude of countries when UN decides that our way of life is a crime against humanity and declares a holy war against us? Bandits might also get interested in exploiting such land for their means, and local warlords/dictators from the less tame of us may emerge as well.

So long as the scale of our community is small, we'll have to forego a lot of modern conveniences that we are used to because of the need for autarky and lack of financing/trade capabilities. These conveniences may include medicine, computers, or the certainty that there is going to be food on your table tomorrow. How does one procure energy on a remote island in polar regions? Especially on a remote island in polar regions that's sanctioned and hated by everybody. One might reply that people of Faroe islands used to live without all the modern excesses for centuries, but we, the children of technogenic landscape, have not been taught how to live such a life. And the modern way of life requires many specialists in all sorts of areas as well as scale. Some parts of it we will have to maintain. What do if an 8-year-old girl got pregnant and is now at risk of dying from child birth? We'll have to be able to carry out an abortion, at least.

We are MAPs, but will our children be MAPs as well? If yes, are they going to enjoy the love of their founding fathers? If no, what reason they have to not defect to the outer world for a better life the price of which may be denouncing us and giving powers that be grounds for a crusade?

However complex it is, it still somehow seems nigh less out of reach than us getting freedom in our societies. There are historic examples of people fleeing from their newfound oppression to elsewhere, where the state doesn't reach. For example, in Russia some christians fled to Siberia when the state forced through new rites that were deemed unholy by the "old believers". But something like this seems a lot less achievable now when governments have more means to exercise power than ever and reach far and wide.

Founding a closed sect still existing within an established society, a sect where some people have the job of procuring money seems for now less suffocatingly sophisticated. Who knows, maybe these sects are precisely the elusive pedophile rings that the media likes to scare the public with. Only, setting up something like this is probably not achievable on a public forum where ever-present forces that seek to track and disrupt us come by. So, achieving a more tight-knit degree of cooperation while still staying 146% legal seems like a more feasible goal for now. And gathering forces. Mu is tiny, isn't it? But if we do get bigger, won't more effort be spent to disrupt and subvert us? Eeeh, complex it all is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z33ieoNPWc4

[WavesInEternity]

A comparison we can draw, and an example of what not to do, would be with Pitcairn Island, a remote community of about ~50 all consisting of descendants from the HMS Bounty mutineers and their Polynesian consorts at the time (many if not most of whom had been abducted).

In 2004, a huge scandal erupted where one-third of the island's men were indicted on sexual abuse charges, principally toward minors (all girls). They defended their sexual "promiscuity" and the effective age of consent of 12 as being in line with traditional Polynesian customs, and they claimed in their defense that British sovereignty didn't apply to them. They failed.

It's worth noting that the scandal was mainly due to the efforts of one man, a Christian pastor. If we ever build a MAP community, we should be especially wary of the intrusion of Abrahamic faiths.

As EOF mentioned, Israel is a better example of how to successfully establish a nation in the modern day despite bearing the brunt of much of the world's hatred. That example demonstrates that, among other things, such a project requires:
~ Millions of people with a shared culture and a shared ideal.
~ Centuries (millennia) of shared history.
~ Immense financial resources.
~ The Bomb and a powerful military (universal military service is a must).

The MAP movement isn't even close to having any of those necessary elements for successful nation-building, so I believe we should really focus instead on building our community and our shared values, in addition to fundraising.

[PorcelainLark]

Are you talking about creating some kind of autonomous zone, unbound by laws of any country? Doesn't that practically mean setting up our own state?

Personally, I feel creating a state is a better idea than an autonomous zone, but changing the laws of an existing state is preferable than creating a state. I don't really get the point of TAZs. AMSC isn't like doing drugs in the eyes of the public, I expect if you break the laws that society takes very seriously the chances are that you will be pursued and especially if you're dealing with a group of people rather than a solitary individual.

An Israel for pedophiles is a consolating thing to dream about, but it seems incredibly complex and nigh out of reach. Even if we do somehow manage to set up such a state, won't we get sanctioned to oblivion? Or, worse yet, get rectified Iraq-style by a multitude of countries when UN decides that our way of life is a crime against humanity and declares a holy war against us? Bandits might also get interested in exploiting such land for their means, and local warlords/dictators from the less tame of us may emerge as well.

This is why I would suggestion "decoupling," where you have as ostensible outward set of goals (e.g. scientific research) and a set of classified objectives that are internal. As for warlords/bandits, that's an argument against being centrally located.

So long as the scale of our community is small, we'll have to forego a lot of modern conveniences that we are used to because of the need for autarky and lack of financing/trade capabilities. These conveniences may include medicine, computers, or the certainty that there is going to be food on your table tomorrow. How does one procure energy on a remote island in polar regions? Especially on a remote island in polar regions that's sanctioned and hated by everybody. One might reply that people of Faroe islands used to live without all the modern excesses for centuries, but we, the children of technogenic landscape, have not been taught how to live such a life. And the modern way of life requires many specialists in all sorts of areas as well as scale. Some parts of it we will have to maintain. What do if an 8-year-old girl got pregnant and is now at risk of dying from child birth? We'll have to be able to carry out an abortion, at least.

Energy is the least of the difficulties in Antarctica because of the constant high wind speeds. For food, it would have to be controlled-environment agriculture (e.g. hydroponics). The thing I'd be most concerned about is medical staffing; everything else seems possible, if difficult and costly, to obtain.

We are MAPs, but will our children be MAPs as well? If yes, are they going to enjoy the love of their founding fathers? If no, what reason they have to not defect to the outer world for a better life the price of which may be denouncing us and giving powers that be grounds for a crusade?

This is part of the reason why I think a community like this should be single sex.

However complex it is, it still somehow seems nigh less out of reach than us getting freedom in our societies. There are historic examples of people fleeing from their newfound oppression to elsewhere, where the state doesn't reach. For example, in Russia some christians fled to Siberia when the state forced through new rites that were deemed unholy by the "old believers". But something like this seems a lot less achievable now when governments have more means to exercise power than ever and reach far and wide.

Agreed.

Founding a closed sect still existing within an established society, a sect where some people have the job of procuring money seems for now less suffocatingly sophisticated. Who knows, maybe these sects are precisely the elusive pedophile rings that the media likes to scare the public with. Only, setting up something like this is probably not achievable on a public forum where ever-present forces that seek to track and disrupt us come by. So, achieving a more tight-knit degree of cooperation while still staying 146% legal seems like a more feasible goal for now. And gathering forces. Mu is tiny, isn't it? But if we do get bigger, won't more effort be spent to disrupt and subvert us? Eeeh, complex it all is.

I'd be cautious about this, because what's to stop people from taking the money and running? Better to only work with people you know you can trust, who have a proven track record.