The sorry capitulation of Beyond the Plus and BL Talk

[BLueRibbon]

I wouldn't wish ICE on my worst enemy, frankly, and furthermore I think it'd be a bad look for the community as a whole. I'm not really a they go low we go high moralist but tipping them off sounds like a really bad idea

Well, there are two ways to win 'friends'. One is via charm appeals and an outpouring of love. Another is by making people afraid to ever cross you.

I prefer a little of column A... and a little of column B...

I agree with Schorchingwilde here. I don't think this strategy will gain us many friends...

But it might dissuade antis from threatening us in the future. Right now, bullying and threatening MAPs is entirely free of consequences, and that has to change.

[Scorchingwilde]

Well, there are two ways to win 'friends'. One is via charm appeals and an outpouring of love. Another is by making people afraid to ever cross you.

I prefer a little of column A... and a little of column B...

I agree with Schorchingwilde here. I don't think this strategy will gain us many friends...

But it might dissuade antis from threatening us in the future. Right now, bullying and threatening MAPs is entirely free of consequences, and that has to change.

If it were even something like calling the cops (pigs) on them for a victimless crime like squatting I wouldn't care, but ICE is something altogether different. In principle I agree with trying to dissuade them from their threats, even with counter-threats, but given the state of things in the US, providing tips to what I and many others think of as the modern day SS is a terrible idea. Also, any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively, to our detriment. In the US there is already a lot of noise on the left being made of the fact that some ICE members, due to not being background checked, are on the sex offender registry for 'CSA,' some having been pardoned by Trump for involvement in January 6th. Long term it might not be very effective and could backfire given the media landscape in the foreseeable future.

[HumanBeing]

I agree with Schorchingwilde here. I don't think this strategy will gain us many friends...

But it might dissuade antis from threatening us in the future. Right now, bullying and threatening MAPs is entirely free of consequences, and that has to change.

If it were even something like calling the cops (pigs) on them for a victimless crime like squatting I wouldn't care, but ICE is something altogether different. In principle I agree with trying to dissuade them from their threats, even with counter-threats, but given the state of things in the US, providing tips to what I and many others think of as the modern day SS is a terrible idea. Also, any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively, to our detriment. In the US there is already a lot of noise on the left being made of the fact that some ICE members, due to not being background checked, are on the sex offender registry for 'CSA,' some having been pardoned by Trump for involvement in January 6th. Long term it might not be very effective and could backfire given the media landscape in the foreseeable future.

"any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively"
I don't think ICE will boast about MAPs sending tips to them due to the stigma of MAPs being "monsters" and if it happens it would be in a positive look like "Even the MAPs are helping American people trough ICE" or some shit that could make Far-right people reconsider MAPs as potential tools to whitewash Trump public image of him as a pedophile

Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all

[DANAT4T]

But it might dissuade antis from threatening us in the future. Right now, bullying and threatening MAPs is entirely free of consequences, and that has to change.

If it were even something like calling the cops (pigs) on them for a victimless crime like squatting I wouldn't care, but ICE is something altogether different. In principle I agree with trying to dissuade them from their threats, even with counter-threats, but given the state of things in the US, providing tips to what I and many others think of as the modern day SS is a terrible idea. Also, any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively, to our detriment. In the US there is already a lot of noise on the left being made of the fact that some ICE members, due to not being background checked, are on the sex offender registry for 'CSA,' some having been pardoned by Trump for involvement in January 6th. Long term it might not be very effective and could backfire given the media landscape in the foreseeable future.

"any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively"
I don't think ICE will boast about MAPs sending tips to them due to the stigma of MAPs being "monsters" and if it happens it would be in a positive look like "Even the MAPs are helping American people trough ICE" or some shit that could make Far-right people reconsider MAPs as potential tools to whitewash Trump public image of him as a pedophile

Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all

'Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all.'
Stop playing nice. It was a Nazi Zionist pact.

[HumanBeing]

If it were even something like calling the cops (pigs) on them for a victimless crime like squatting I wouldn't care, but ICE is something altogether different. In principle I agree with trying to dissuade them from their threats, even with counter-threats, but given the state of things in the US, providing tips to what I and many others think of as the modern day SS is a terrible idea. Also, any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively, to our detriment. In the US there is already a lot of noise on the left being made of the fact that some ICE members, due to not being background checked, are on the sex offender registry for 'CSA,' some having been pardoned by Trump for involvement in January 6th. Long term it might not be very effective and could backfire given the media landscape in the foreseeable future.

"any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively"
I don't think ICE will boast about MAPs sending tips to them due to the stigma of MAPs being "monsters" and if it happens it would be in a positive look like "Even the MAPs are helping American people trough ICE" or some shit that could make Far-right people reconsider MAPs as potential tools to whitewash Trump public image of him as a pedophile

Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all

'Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all.'
Stop playing nice. It was a Nazi Zionist pact.

I'm was referring to Dr. Eduard Bloch rather than the Havaraa pact but anyways what I mean is that MAPs must win with whatever means available if ICE can be a tool we must use it

[DANAT4T]

"any collaboration between MAPs and ICE is going to be propagandized about massively"
I don't think ICE will boast about MAPs sending tips to them due to the stigma of MAPs being "monsters" and if it happens it would be in a positive look like "Even the MAPs are helping American people trough ICE" or some shit that could make Far-right people reconsider MAPs as potential tools to whitewash Trump public image of him as a pedophile

Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all

'Even Hitler protected a few Jews during the Holocaust after all.'
Stop playing nice. It was a Nazi Zionist pact.

I'm was referring to Dr. Eduard Bloch rather than the Havaraa pact but anyways what I mean is that MAPs must win with whatever means available if ICE can be a tool we must use it

I understand.

[PorcelainLark]

Regarding mocking victims of CSA. On the one hand I agree that there are genuine cases of CSA, and that's a horrible experience. On the other hand, I think resilience requires a person to not make one's sense of trauma overwhelming. So, in cases where there is genuinely trauma we should question whether it is insurmountable, not just for our own sake, but for the sake of victims. Telling a person they're irreparably broken isn't good for them, nor is telling them no one else could understand their experiences.

On the other hand, there are people who use the claim of sexual trauma as a type of clout. This needs to be dismantled because of how it effects both MAPs and victims. We have to recognize that there is a strong incentive to claim to be victimized.

Sometimes joking does help - both the victims and us. There's a difference between trivializing abuse ("normalizing" it) and showing it isn't the end of the world. However, we can't deny the fact that there is a strong social incentive to claim victimhood; so I won't say mocking any person who claims to have been traumatized by CSA is necessarily wrong.

Whether the response is irreverent or respectful, I think it helps when it's coming from a person who has experienced trauma themselves (sexual or otherwise). If you know what trauma is, you're more likely to know what is and isn't over the line.