Gay Rollback Is Coming (And That's A Good Thing)

[Anonymous_Lover]

Apparently rolling back gay marriage is good for MAPs?

Artaxerxes II and myself have already made the point, which I find compelling, that when the defense of gay marriage against bigots largely comes down to "who cares what consenting adults do in their privacy of their own home" then actually is it a zero sum struggle between us and them. If they have to use anti-MAP bigotry to defend their "rights" then what good are those rights to us? In fact, they are actually aiding our marginalization rather than it being a net positive or totally unrelated/neutral thing. And, in fact, the LGBT lobby and the broader Left have been in a rage calling the Trump admin and everything percieved to e to their right pedophiles. They are having their own Qtard moment. And, since Q reflected the deep incapacity and incompetence of the first Trump admin and the need to keep a diverse coalition of forces that were not natural allies welded together that also says a lot about where the anti-Trump coaltion is going and how effective it will be. Spoiler: its likely to splinter apart as soon as Trump's out of there as bourgeois right/centrist liberals break with the fragile tentative alliance they have with parts of the Left. I think you can say this is a new rule of American/Anglophobe politics: you start calling everyone not on your side a pedophile when you are either not in power and feel you are losing or feel that if you come to power the social/political basis of that power will be fragile rather than durable and overwhelming. So the people who you want to rescue hate you and would shoot you in the face on live camera if it meant they could flip one suburban soccer mom/boomercon/chud vote.

I have yet to hear a compelling argument about why MAPs should not celebrate and utilize the opportunity when our enemies fail, let alone for why we should withold free labor for LGBT/feminist/leftist causes that marginalize and participate in whipping up hatred against us. I'm not sure the Right is actually worse rn tbh I see more pro-pedophilia/pedo adjacent content on X and the newly Zionist-controlled tik tok then I saw when those platforms were more liberal/woke adjacent. Maybe it has to do with the userbase and not the actual moderation which could be broken, which is fine but then its likely the cultural shift to the New Right that is giving people enough breathing room to flirt with being pro-pedo, even psuedoanonymously. My perception is you definitely got the banhammer much much faster two to six years ago for this type of stuff. People talk about woke 2.0, i think thats mostly a fake meme, but if it does consolidate, as things stand now, it will be vociferously anti-MAP and that is desirable because...? Seems to me the more they are allowed to fail the more they will either not be able to control the conversation around our issue or will have to enter unconventional alliances such as begrudging acceptance of MAPs.

Bc the Christian Nationalists aren’t exactly broadly pro-MAP either.

A good deal of MAGA aren't really Christian nationalists but members of the secular/pagan/Jewish hard right but I take your point. Peter Thiel himself might be a Christian but the average card carrying member of the Thiel mafia is a secular person obsessed with tech and fascist ideas and aesthetics not with returning to an idealized Christian past.A lot of these guys on X howl their lungs out to memes about towel boys (often actually pictures of women that seem boyish like Gio Scotti) or Howling Mutant constantly making "jokes" about child molestation. I think when Araxerxes is ready for publish the essay every lib on this forum should read his essay on The Right Wing and Minor Attraction
its a groundbreaking essay.

Nonetheless, history shows that even if the Right aren't our friends, they aren't uniformly our enemies, so why is it important for MAPs to help liberal and left-wing causes in exchange for nothing or to at least passively hope they succeed from the sidelines when that logic is not applied to the Right? Even when it comes to somewhat friendly forces on the Right? And let's not kid ourselves while there are liberal states like California that have left "child marriage laws" on the books who is it who are broadly against them? Who are likely to ignore them and vote to keep them intact in the current environment?

And, if this counts as a focus on heterosexual child marriage to the exclusion of other forms of minor attraction once this holdover is lost when do you expect MAPs to win again? If gays losing access to marriage somehow hurts MAPs then wow does helping wokes/democrats take power and potentially ban child marriage contribute to a climate favorable to MAPs?

In theory, since marriage equality is still the law of the land and "child marriage" laws exist why don't pederasts and lesbians take advantage of this loophole and marry teens and tweens themselves where they can? Unless... its just not that important because gays aren't really interested in getting married. One would think, though, with as many pederasts ive seen professing to be exclusive there would be no problem with making a partner into an honest boy-wife. I've seen a number of pederasts and bi-MAPs arguing against child marriage and yet I've never seen a pederast talking about getting gay married to a boy which is curious. And maybe i just dont spend enough time on boychat cuz im not gay but its weird how that never comes up.

But let’s not pretend it won’t leave every other group in the dust, including other MAPs.

Not a single group is criminalized or socially ostracized to a fraction of the extent that MAPs are and that's just a fact. I argue all the time that MAPs are the most criminalized and excluded sexual minority that history has ever known. In the grand scheme of things, this may be their just deserts, because freeing MAPs could be the key to freeing all excluded sexual minorities.

Let me just take your point at face value for a moment, if they don't fight they'll lose. They'll die. And that's sad but its also reality. The real question then is do you think MAPs are powerful enough to stop that from happening when they cant save themselves?

From where I'm sitting, it looks like the average "queer" would rather shoot a MAP in the head and then make out with a fascist on top of his/her corpse. They'd literally rather die than accept your help so on some level you have to let them.

The question is your going to go to the streets and join this grand anti-fascist LARP fantasy for what? MAPs probably won't affect the outcome but if they do it will probably be forgotten immediately much like how the help that pederasts gave the gay movement was lost, and even trans people, who were always somewhat more socially acceptable than us in those decades, got buried for decades until reemerging explosively in the 2010s (though the trans movement seems to be falling off almost as explosively in the 2020s). But if MAPs are remembered in the near to medium term it will likely be by the fascists if they win and that will make us more of a target than presently.


Nobody on this forum or elsewhere in the community can stop Trump or Vance from flipping the fascism button, and I'd argue the ruling class has abandoned bourgeois democracy and reform already and so even if democratic forms remain like elections it will make no difference. Thats another conversation though.

I realize it can be a scary thing but you have to be willing to let enemies lose even if you fear rival enemies will do you real harm. If you want to be a revolutionary you have to accept this could all end badly and even the revolution we're fighting for might not only get obliterated but end up doing more harm than good. Yet can a soldier abandon his post on the fear that an enemy artillery strike on his position might mean he will die a senseless death or even that his sacrifice could somehow do more harm than good?

The middle class leadership/constituency of this movement who push reform and reconciliation with the system and the LGBT/feminist lobbies + the bloated corpse of the liberal establishment, who seem to be disproportionately made up of Gen Xers or late millennials fail to realize that we do need to be revolutionary to win our goals. Even reforms can't be won without revolutionary action.

And, you can't be a revolutionary if you're deathly afraid of the end of this present status quo. You have to be willing to break some eggs or to accept that broken eggs you care about are a possibility.

[Officerkrupke]

In fact, they are actually aiding our marginalization rather than it being a net positive or totally unrelated/neutral thing.

You act like the Left is the main driving force behind MAP marginalization. It’s wishful thinking to root for democracy to fall and just hope Christian Nationalists will be our new allies.They are anti-anything sex outside of marriage, especially “sexual deviance” aka us.
Hint: It’s been the years long campaign of trying to associate the Left and LGBT with “child grooming” like by Matt Walsh that shows their desperation for the last 5+ years.(This is obviously Q-influenced)

Your next government is going to look a lot closer to Hungary or Russia, famously pro-MAP places, and nice places to live, especially for freedom of speech but at least the “Left” isn’t in control. X is famously less moderated, you’re just seeing the result. And speaking of LARPing…

And, you can't be a revolutionary if you're deathly afraid of the end of this present status quo. You have to be willing to break some eggs or to accept that broken eggs you care about are a possibility

[Learning to undeny]

I don't care too much about gay marriage itself (although I support it right now), but if we regress to a time without gay marriage (in those parts of the world where it's a thing) it will be because homophobia has increased, and people will be more vigilant about deviant sexualities in general. Also, you can make a straight male movement if you want, but over a half of people here seem to be bi or gay:
https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.p ... rls#p15297
(That poll didn't ask about your gender. I could be wrong. But at least 1/3 are bi.)

So all of us gay and bi MAPs here have to be happy with gay rollback? I do not feel identified with the LGBT movement, but bisexuality is also part of me. I'd feel attacked if people started complaining more about homosexuality.

Artaxerxes II and myself have already made the point, which I find compelling, that when the defense of gay marriage against bigots largely comes down to "who cares what consenting adults do in their privacy of their own home" then actually is it a zero sum struggle between us and them.

If gay marriage is part of the status quo and accepted by the majority, the arguments used the rare occasion where you have to defend it against bigots (probably without much public) have little repercussion. People accept what they are accustomed to without a deeper reason. On the other hand, if gay marriage becomes the subject of debate again, you will see all those anti-MAP arguments used more often by LGBT people. I think you address this in the following quote:

People talk about woke 2.0, i think thats mostly a fake meme, but if it does consolidate, as things stand now, it will be vociferously anti-MAP and that is desirable because...? Seems to me the more they are allowed to fail the more they will either not be able to control the conversation around our issue or will have to enter unconventional alliances such as begrudging acceptance of MAPs.

Who knows long-term if that will happen, but short-term if LGBT loses some power they would still be massively popular and position themselves more strongly against MAPs to try to save themselves. I don't think that's beneficial to us. Do we have to wait 20 years or something until they (if your will materializes) lose so much power that they ally with MAPs or become irrelevant?

Not a single group is criminalized or socially ostracized to a fraction of the extent that MAPs are and that's just a fact. I argue all the time that MAPs are the most criminalized and excluded sexual minority that history has ever known. In the grand scheme of things, this may be their just deserts, because freeing MAPs could be the key to freeing all excluded sexual minorities.

Probably...

I realize it can be a scary thing but you have to be willing to let enemies lose even if you fear rival enemies will do you real harm. If you want to be a revolutionary you have to accept this could all end badly and even the revolution we're fighting for might not only get obliterated but end up doing more harm than good. Yet can a soldier abandon his post on the fear that an enemy artillery strike on his position might mean he will die a senseless death or even that his sacrifice could somehow do more harm than good?

The middle class leadership/constituency of this movement who push reform and reconciliation with the system and the LGBT/feminist lobbies + the bloated corpse of the liberal establishment, who seem to be disproportionately made up of Gen Xers or late millennials fail to realize that we do need to be revolutionary to win our goals. Even reforms can't be won without revolutionary action.

And, you can't be a revolutionary if you're deathly afraid of the end of this present status quo. You have to be willing to break some eggs or to accept that broken eggs you care about are a possibility.

OK, that's fine but I just don't want LGBT people to lose rights "just in case" it helps us some day... I just don't have hope that things will turn out as you say, to be honest.

[Anonymous_Lover]

You act like the Left is the main driving force behind MAP marginalization.

I tend to think that the center is the most anti-MAP segment of politics since its so empty and tied to a failing status quo, so invested in normality etc. that one of the few things it can latch onto make its own pseudo-populist noises about is "pedophilia." And the deep reason for this is compared to the far left/right it just has so much less to offer.

Though I could make the case that the Left today is at the bleeding edge of new forms of anti-MAP marginalization and politics. Let's just be honest with ourselves, the Right did not invent the idea that dating adult women under 25 is pedophilia which was a common take that people on twitter believed or pretended to believe until a few years ago. Given the "concern" for homosexuality I do wonder why it never goes the other way, why aren't bisexuals interested in combating hetero-phobic and misandrist attitudes and social norms that get pushed by liberals? Isn't having sex with females as much a part of your identity as with males? So what do you do if one side wants to make that harder?

I do get that the homophobia of the right is more liable to have real life consequences but the social and legal ramifications of #MeToo hysteria were not small, so you wonder where the people who are so ready to call out sex negative bigotry on the right when it comes to male on male anal sex were back then? It and the under-25 thing was clearly a heterosexual focused moral panic that originated on "the Left." Look, I'm a front-line activist so I'm very in tune with what is happening online in different spheres, I am aware enough of queer and gay spaces to see that among zoomers this was filtering down even into gay/queer spaces. But it wasn't nearly as much of a focus and it didn't go as far because quite frankly as Michael Tracey said "we're being held hostage [as a society] by mentally ill women [regarding the Epstein affair]."

The best thing I can say in defense of the Left's current position on this topic is that the present Left is not really the true old radical Left and is often incoherently mixed up with liberal and centrist elements and beliefs. I could dig into where leftists and even a small minority of feminists in the past took pro-MAP positions but, how useful is this distinction, really?

To my mind, most of the people who call themselves leftists online and even many of the people who call themselves, socialists, anarchists, communists or Marxists, are liberals, and liberal and left-wing are distinctly different. If I attack liberals and people who I consider to be liberals wearing leftist clothing then your mind instantly goes to saying that I am attacking "the Left" in general and enters into a reactive defense mode.

And, you are right to do that, maybe that is by and large what the Left is in the West in the present moment. I won't say it will always be that way but we must always engage with what is, not just a subjective world of what we want things to be. But, if that is the case, then Fuck the Left!

Its not actually a Left I would want to be part of. I'm sure PorcelainLark probably considers himself on the Left in a vague amorphous way despite being a hardcore Zionist and a "pro-Western", pro-bourgeois person. This is forum is a microcosm of that in a way, being on "the Left" tends to mean being in coalition with people like that because they share some of the same values and "they mean well." But sometimes meaning well isn't enough!

If we won't attack our enemies on the Left then what should we do? Exclusively focus on getting empathy from what is left from the dying liberal establishment? Debating conservatives on Campus like Charlie Kirk's opponents or something? To me, this seems a lot like saying that homophobic/transphobic communists shouldn't have their views challenged in the 60s-80s. I actually knew someone who knew guys in RCPUSA (Maoist group) when they were a Maoist group and they used to yap to them about going and beating up gays in the 80s. A number of the founding fathers of the gay rights movement in the US were in the communist movement and left because they wanted to promote the cause to the public more effectively from outside the movement or they were running into opposition/lukewarm support within the organization. If you won't treat the MAPphobic left as enemies then your dooming this issue to either irrelevancy (considering the state of the center) or a right wing cause. And, in spite of my public positions on the right-wing question, I actually do worry that this will lead to MAP rights being seen as a inherently right-wing coded cause -- and its already kind of perceived that way in leftist circles.

It’s wishful thinking to root for democracy to fall

Bourgeois Democracy is terminally ill already, nothing I say is changing that fact, and all the fixation on the midterms is the liberal version of the idea of how when GTA6 gets released its going to save gaming and magically undo many of the structural problems of the industry. Much like GTA6, the midterms might not even happen, and even if it happens and is a good result it won't save the system but also it might be a huge disappointment, and I wouldn't put it past the Trump admin to rig it. And since we live in the Great Democracy in the history of the Universe according to liberals if the GOP does rig it then liberals are hoisting themselves by their petard after more than a decade of attacking Trump for his irreverence concerning the sanctity and reliability of the US electoral process.

just hope Christian Nationalists will be our new allies.

I never said this, I think its liable the Christian Right will pass away as its the secular right that clearly has the ideas and dominates the discourse, the aging baby boomer and gen X evangelicals who push the button for a straight ticket republican because their pastor said to vote that way are passing away or into less direct political engagement due to their retirement. They are needed for the right wing project now but they don't really make up the real spirit of the right wing online on places like X which is very much an under 40 phenomenon.

They are anti-anything sex outside of marriage, especially “sexual deviance” aka us.

With evangelicals, mormons, and Amish voters this might be true but the online far right actually makes the present online Left look like puritans in comparison in many ways One left-wing commentator described that scene as an "onanistic cult" and tht may be right but its made up so disproportionately of young men because unlike the Left, the online Right doesn't demonize male sexuality to the same extent, so no surprise that outside of direct recruitment its indirectly become part of the vocabulary that young men speak in and vice-versa, the vocabulary of young men filters into the right. And btw if you like being gay then you should try hanging out in right wing spaces, especially on element, those are some of the gayest places I've been in my life lol

Hint: It’s been the years long campaign of trying to associate the Left and LGBT with “child grooming” like by Matt Walsh that shows their desperation for the last 5+ years.(This is obviously Q-influenced)

I've never denied this and have often pointed out this was the case against Rightist MAPs who think the movement should only ally with the right but now I am seeing the leftist MAPs in the same state of denial. And, honestly they've been in denial for a long time. But the Left is basically repeating the Qtard movement almost ten years later and conservative is becoming a byword for pedophile on places like tik tok and X. And, this probably has a lot to do with the perception that Trump is compromised in a unique way by Epstein, certainly, even if he isn't, the administration has handled it so badly that its just good politics to attack him and the admin as pedophiles. But, don't get too excited, that is a tactic that might be effective for them but which does come at our expense.

Your next government is going to look a lot closer to Hungary or Russia, famously pro-MAP places, and nice places to live, especially for freedom of speech but at least the “Left” isn’t in control. X is famously less moderated, you’re just seeing the result. And speaking of LARPing…

Did you not get the memo? Big scary evil Orban got defeated by an insurgent anti-fascist candidate in that last election! Oh, wait, the guy who defeated him is also the head of a far right party and the Left netted a miniscule vote share. But it is a rich metaphor for the present and future of Western democracy. As, for Russia, it does have a longstanding GL-pedophilic culture that existed under the Soviets and has continued culturally at least under Putin. There's a reason why theres a whole meme about how all Russians do is play CS:GO and watch child porn and gore on telegram. Freedom of speech is already being undone in the West systemically, I don't have time to outline why that is the case but you should know this if you watch the news. As for X, whether its because Elon's incompetence broke the moderation or they think a less strict line on pedophilia helps the right given how Trump is weak there, I do think its a good result for us. As for the nice places to live remark, compare them to how they were before their revolutions, and also it was liberals who ended communist rule in those two countries, so liberals are the reason why "the Left" as you put it isn't in power. Putin was personally appointed by Yeltsin who functionally made himself dictator by shelling the duma and by rigging the election results in 96 when the communists won it. If Russia is indeed a "dictatorship" then the present dictatorship exists because it was the only way that liberals could rule Russia without being overthrown by the working class there.

[bnkywuv]

There are toxics in both groups. The more vulnerable/covert will take the far left because "at least we're not neo Nazis!" and those on the far right are overt and loud angry fascist assholes who want to cut healthcare. Yes, that includes children's healthcare. There are mean, intolerant people in every political spectrum which is why i personally think politics should be highly reworked as MAPs and AAMs gain traction.

Until we evolve as species or just get rid of these toxic people in political settings, political agendas will only continue to grow more and more radical with each generation.

However it doesn't make sense! According to Google: "Liberalism focuses on individual rights, constitutional governance, and free markets to protect personal liberties. Liberation is a collective framework aimed at dismantling systemic oppression, prioritizing transformative social change and solidarity for the most vulnerable." Also "Liberal describes a political or social philosophy focused on openness to new ideas, individual rights, and reforming established systems."

Thus clearly individual rights, social change and dismantlement of systematic oppression must not apply to children or MAPs. SO much calling themselves liberals who are open to new ideas...

They CLAIM they're all for equality and whatnot, but it's not at all what it is in practice. They oppress youth acting like they're "helping" them (control), they lawnmower parent (to make the children see them as the only safety network for better dominance), and helicopter parent (making them feel insecure with anything and everything, creating a trauma bond by dopaminergic isolation).

Politics is just a mask they wear to make themselves look like decent people. Liberal in relation to liberation should suggest they're open, but their behavior especially towards MAPs and children in general dictates anything BUT that.

My father describes himself as democratic/liberal, and he's nothing like these crazy "liberals".