Contact Debate - ethics of the logical categories

[Scorchingwilde]

0-2 for learning consent but 3-5 for contact
consent should be one of the first things that someone learns, either thru their parents or at school (with good sex education as well because that is important and they should know what they're consenting to at age 3-4 because thats when they can make memories and remember stuff)

as long as they understand what'll happen, how to say "I want to stop doing this" and "I want to do this" then contact is fine

- Rusty | It/Vamp/Star | AAM | Main Host 1 | "History Has Its Eyes On You"
- Toby | give me 200 dollars and ill tell u my pronouns (He/It/Xe) | MAP + Necro | Listkeeper | "So Long And Goodnight"

There is only one type of sex education that I approve of.

Have you forgot the risk of pregnancy STDs and learning about consent itself? Like I said if I'm pushed I can lower it from 13 to 11.5 but most children below 9-10 don't have a proper libido.They'll won't find anything strongly attractive but will still find anything potentially attractive because they lack hormones that put them in erotic mental states. This can lead to people taking of them.

This explanation of libido and attraction is entirely false or at least not universal, my preteen experiences literally contradict these claims. I doubt I'm one in a million in that regard.

[zarkle]

There is only one type of sex education that I approve of.

Have you forgot the risk of pregnancy STDs and learning about consent itself? Like I said if I'm pushed I can lower it from 13 to 11.5 but most children below 9-10 don't have a proper libido.They'll won't find anything strongly attractive but will still find anything potentially attractive because they lack hormones that put them in erotic mental states. This can lead to people taking of them.

This explanation of libido and attraction is entirely false or at least not universal, my preteen experiences literally contradict these claims. I doubt I'm one in a million in that regard.

Before the puberty hormones kicked in I was attracted to platonic friendships and the abstract concept of vaginas as holes and non sexual cartoons or people on TV of both genders. After the hormones kicked in I was attracted to boobs, butts, women and of course girls. The sexual attraction was there, but it was weak and abstract until puberty at 10 where it became obsessive afterwards.

The hormones are what made my libido concrete and fixed instead of wishy washy. and I didn't become a horny perv until 11. Showing the hormones take a bit of time and are clearly playing a major role sexual attention and what one is attracted too. Without hormones I'd still be sexually attracted to platonic concepts and non sexual things. Let me just give one example

When I was 3 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of some little boy showing his pee pee in the McDonald's play place or my other friend Kyle who never showed his peepee, it was purely platonic.

When I was 5 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of going back in my moms tummy and meeting GOD, as well as Tails from Sonic the Hedgehog and Furby.

When I was 7 I had abstract non clear protoseuxal fantasies of meeting the people from this television show I liked (I'd rather not say)

When I was 9 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of meeting the president and his opponent candidate of that era (lol)

When I was close to 8 my kidneys started producing weak hormones that made me curious in the opposite sex and vaginas as holes, I remember that era. That was when I first started showing interest in what a vagina looked like and watching Britney Spears Dance lewd. 9 is the first time I started having fantasies about fighting a bully in the 5th grade and rescuing the pretty girl. It was also the first time I watched sexy women dance on MTV and started routinely masturbating. Then at 10 I became overwhelmed with sexual thoughts about girls boobs, butts, lingerie that I never had before and enhanced the masturbation experience. It was no longer "proto sexual prehormone arousal" it was concrete arousal the same that I have as an adult. Caused by hormones and the puberty process.

Therefore If a child doesn't have these hormones they can't understand what they are attracted too, Thus we can make the case that a six year old girl can view sex as purely platonic without understanding it from hormones, thus she can be deceived in having sex with a fat overweight neckbeard due to pure platonic reasons. Therefore it is deceiving her into doing something she may not do if she had hormones.

Its not that hard. Antis are at fault for never giving cold logical consent debates. All they do is get disgusted and morally outraged and never explain why. I'm explaining why. If you really push me I admit I did had some curiosity to adult women early as 8, but it was mixed in with abstractions. True Lustful feelings didn't happen till 10.

[Scorchingwilde]

Before the puberty hormones kicked in I was attracted to platonic friendships and the abstract concept of vaginas as holes and non sexual cartoons or people on TV of both genders. After the hormones kicked in I was attracted to boobs, butts, women and of course girls. The sexual attraction was there, but it was weak and abstract until puberty at 10 where it became obsessive afterwards.

The hormones are what made my libido concrete and fixed instead of wishy washy. and I didn't become a horny perv until 11. Showing the hormones take a bit of time and are clearly playing a major role sexual attention and what one is attracted too. Without hormones I'd still be sexually attracted to platonic concepts and non sexual things.
.....
When I was close to 8 my kidneys started producing weak hormones that made me curious in the opposite sex and vaginas as holes, I remember that era. That was when I first started showing interest in what a vagina looked like and watching Britney Spears Dance lewd. 9 is the first time I started having fantasies about fighting a bully in the 5th grade and rescuing the pretty girl. It was also the first time I watched sexy women dance on MTV and started routinely masturbating. Then at 10 I became overwhelmed with sexual thoughts about girls boobs, butts, lingerie that I never had before and enhanced the masturbation experience. It was no longer "proto sexual prehormone arousal" it was concrete arousal the same that I have as an adult. Caused by hormones and the puberty process.

Therefore If a child doesn't have these hormones they can't understand what they are attracted too, Thus we can make the case that a six year old girl can view sex as purely platonic without understanding it from hormones, thus she can be deceived in having sex with a fat overweight neckbeard due to pure platonic reasons. Therefore it is deceiving her into doing something she may not do if she had hormones.

I'm not telling you that your experience is wrong or didn't happen, but I am telling you that my experience of sexuality and attraction from before the age of 8 was basically the same as it is now, and so far I feel like you aren't willing to engage with that fact.

[John_Doe]

Have you forgot the risk of pregnancy STDs and learning about consent itself? Like I said if I'm pushed I can lower it from 13 to 11.5 but most children below 9-10 don't have a proper libido.They'll won't find anything strongly attractive but will still find anything potentially attractive because they lack hormones that put them in erotic mental states. This can lead to people taking of them.

This explanation of libido and attraction is entirely false or at least not universal, my preteen experiences literally contradict these claims. I doubt I'm one in a million in that regard.

Before the puberty hormones kicked in I was attracted to platonic friendships and the abstract concept of vaginas as holes and non sexual cartoons or people on TV of both genders. After the hormones kicked in I was attracted to boobs, butts, women and of course girls. The sexual attraction was there, but it was weak and abstract until puberty at 10 where it became obsessive afterwards.

The hormones are what made my libido concrete and fixed instead of wishy washy. and I didn't become a horny perv until 11. Showing the hormones take a bit of time and are clearly playing a major role sexual attention and what one is attracted too. Without hormones I'd still be sexually attracted to platonic concepts and non sexual things. Let me just give one example

When I was 3 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of some little boy showing his pee pee in the McDonald's play place or my other friend Kyle who never showed his peepee, it was purely platonic.

When I was 5 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of going back in my moms tummy and meeting GOD, as well as Tails from Sonic the Hedgehog and Furby.

When I was 7 I had abstract non clear protoseuxal fantasies of meeting the people from this television show I liked (I'd rather not say)

When I was 9 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of meeting the president and his opponent candidate of that era (lol)

When I was close to 8 my kidneys started producing weak hormones that made me curious in the opposite sex and vaginas as holes, I remember that era. That was when I first started showing interest in what a vagina looked like and watching Britney Spears Dance lewd. 9 is the first time I started having fantasies about fighting a bully in the 5th grade and rescuing the pretty girl. It was also the first time I watched sexy women dance on MTV and started routinely masturbating. Then at 10 I became overwhelmed with sexual thoughts about girls boobs, butts, lingerie that I never had before and enhanced the masturbation experience. It was no longer "proto sexual prehormone arousal" it was concrete arousal the same that I have as an adult. Caused by hormones and the puberty process.

Therefore If a child doesn't have these hormones they can't understand what they are attracted too, Thus we can make the case that a six year old girl can view sex as purely platonic without understanding it from hormones, thus she can be deceived in having sex with a fat overweight neckbeard due to pure platonic reasons. Therefore it is deceiving her into doing something she may not do if she had hormones.

Its not that hard. Antis are at fault for never giving cold logical consent debates. All they do is get disgusted and morally outraged and never explain why. I'm explaining why. If you really push me I admit I did had some curiosity to adult women early as 8, but it was mixed in with abstractions. True Lustful feelings didn't happen till 10.

I feel similarly to Scorchingwilde. If this isn't interpretive on your part (interpretive and how you're remembering childhood feelings and experiences in retrospect), I think it's anecdotal and don't think it can be taken as evidence for a universal or even general truth about human sexuality. I don't ever remember being attracted to abstract concepts. I was always attracted to girls/women. Not the 'idea' of them, the people themselves. You're the authority on what you remember but you seem to be assuming a connection between the shift in your sexuality and hormonal surges that you don't necessarily have evidence for (and inferring causality because one presumed thing preceded the other. We never experience causality itself, unless maybe you're talking about the objects of happiness/emotional distress that we wouldn't experience without).

Did you have some kind of blood work, or whatever physical test they might use, done (ejaculating or menstruating makes sexual maturation clear but I'd think that most children; or at least boys, prior to that milestone wouldn't really realize when they had started puberty. This might be projection on my part because I never thought that I was going through puberty at any point, the change must have been gradual, it's a little embarrassing to say but I vaguely remember being in high school and wondering when exactly I had started and finished the whole process because I didn't remember going through it or anything. Maybe you did notice the changes your body though)? I don't think the kidneys play a role in the production of sex hormones that are responsible for puberty either (I'm not an expert), my understanding is that the hypothalamus releases gonadotropin-releasing hormone (gnRH) which stimulates the pituitary gland to release the gonadotopins (follicle-stimulating hormone/FSH and luteinizing hormone/LH) that trigger the gonads (testes/ovaries) to produce testosterone and estrogen/progesterone. Andrenarche, which precedes puberty, might also play a role in sexual desire (I've always thought that happened at 6, for almost everyone, but I've also read that it precedes puberty by two years). A lot of your 'pre-concrete sexuality' fantasies don't seem to involve a desire for physical intimacy or sexual stimulation which seems central to the concept of 'sex,' to me (physical intimacy at least in humans. Even with the marines species that reproduce through external fertilization, they release sperm and eggs in the presence of the opposite sex, the equivalent in humans would be ejaculation which requires sexual stimulation). What connects your 'proto-sexual' fantasies to your 'concrete' sexuality, in what way is the former a precursor to the latter; what makes it 'proto-sexual?'

The idea of having sex with someone without understanding the feelings you'll later associate with that, or even how they feel about it is one of the points I half-understand (I don't know if I've heard anyone else make it but it's occurred to me as an argument against prepubescent child-adult sex) when it comes to the informed consent argument. I don't think it's comparable to selling someone poison on the pretense of it being fruit juice because you can never predict the emotional consequences of a choice (you can't necessarily return something you've never tried before just because you didn't like how it tastes. Nobody lied to you about what it was just because you didn't have a personal reference for how it would affect you) even though it's something to consider (wanting to minimize future regret but this shouldn't be framed as a libertarian concern, as if someone's autonomy has been violated). It doesn't necessarily imply disgust (if you're not disgusted at the idea of certain contact with someone when you're supposedly not capable of sexual attraction, you won't necessarily be disgusted when you are) and adults can't control for the internal feelings of others in various ways (e.g. someone could be aroused by you shaking their hand). People may or may not make all kinds of choices under different circumstances, our choices never exist in a vacuum.

[Scorchingwilde]

Before the puberty hormones kicked in I was attracted to platonic friendships and the abstract concept of vaginas as holes and non sexual cartoons or people on TV of both genders. After the hormones kicked in I was attracted to boobs, butts, women and of course girls. The sexual attraction was there, but it was weak and abstract until puberty at 10 where it became obsessive afterwards.

The hormones are what made my libido concrete and fixed instead of wishy washy. and I didn't become a horny perv until 11. Showing the hormones take a bit of time and are clearly playing a major role sexual attention and what one is attracted too. Without hormones I'd still be sexually attracted to platonic concepts and non sexual things.

I was in a rush when I responded to you earlier, so I'd like to share some of my understanding and experiences related to this more. Attraction to platonic concepts and non-sexual things, kinks and fetishes, are a normal part of many adolescents' and adults' sexualities as well.

When I was 3 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of some little boy showing his pee pee in the McDonald's play place or my other friend Kyle who never showed his peepee, it was purely platonic.

Exhibitionism is relatively common, as is voyeurism even towards people you're not attracted to. Adults with exclusive sexualities, i.e. heterosexual or homosexual or exclusive chronophilias, are perfectly capable of enjoying watching sex between people they're not attracted to provided they aren't disgusted by them.

When I was 5 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of going back in my moms tummy and meeting GOD, as well as Tails from Sonic the Hedgehog and Furby.
When I was 7 I had abstract non clear protoseuxal fantasies of meeting the people from this television show I liked (I'd rather not say)

When it comes to fantasies of going back into your mom and meeting GOD, these seem to be related to intimacy, i.e. being physically and emotionally close with those who are (or you believed were, if your religion has changed) most able to understand you and meet your needs. Plenty of adults experience some degree of attraction based on relational closeness as opposed to physical traits. In the asexual community it's known as demisexuality, and I know one of my immediate relatives is based on conversations we've had in spite of them being straight/hetero-demisexual and not well versed in queer communities. Celebrity/fictional crushes are also common to many people who would never want to have sex with those individuals if they had the chance/if they were real, ace-spectrum labels like fictosexual even exist to encompass part of this, especially because there can be this sense of emotional closeness with characters and people we see or read about in some form of media, either because of our own isolation or the lack of risk involved since there's no choices we have to make in interacting with them or opening up in order to learn more about them.

When I was 9 I had abstract non clear protosexual fantasies of meeting the president and his opponent candidate of that era (lol)

Power is a key aspect of many fetishes and kinks among adults, and who is more powerful than a politician (well, other than a billionaire nowadays, but you get the idea). This is incredibly common, and there's a lot of repressed psychosexual energy in some political communities as well to be honest.

When I was close to 8 my kidneys started producing weak hormones that made me curious in the opposite sex and vaginas as holes, I remember that era. That was when I first started showing interest in what a vagina looked like and watching Britney Spears Dance lewd. 9 is the first time I started having fantasies about fighting a bully in the 5th grade and rescuing the pretty girl. It was also the first time I watched sexy women dance on MTV and started routinely masturbating. Then at 10 I became overwhelmed with sexual thoughts about girls boobs, butts, lingerie that I never had before and enhanced the masturbation experience. It was no longer "proto sexual prehormone arousal" it was concrete arousal the same that I have as an adult.

I'm not going to dispute your experience of your sexuality changing. I will, however, point out that others who have experienced changes that can be correlated with a changing endocrine profile (such as transgender people taking hormonal replacement therapy and elderly people experiencing hormonal decline) that I'm close with have described their attractions themselves as stagnant, but their libido changing as a result of increasing or decreasing sex hormones, which influences whether emotional closeness and romantic attraction or sexual attraction is more important for relationships. In the transgender case it's also noteworthy that hormones causing changes to your body that you feel positive about can make you more willing to engage in sex for a variety of reasons, or less interested in having sex with people out of a need for vicarious euphoria. For gay trans people, this means not feeling the need to have sex with men/women as to feel more feminine/masculine respectively, and for straight trans people this means not dissociating while living vicariously through their partner. It's possible (though not necessarily the case, you know yourself better than me ofc) your earlier fantasies about boys you were friends with was a way of imagining yourself in their position without it becoming too real or personal, especially with nudity in public being taboo when it comes to the exhibitionistic fantasies.

Therefore If a child doesn't have these hormones they can't understand what they are attracted too, Thus we can make the case that a six year old girl can view sex as purely platonic without understanding it from hormones,...

When I look at pictures of the characters I pleasured myself to as a kid, and those I had romantic feelings towards, whether cartoon/anime or played by actors, I still feel attraction to them (as they appeared in that piece of media, cause damn, physical aging is brutal). Many of what you would consider 'protosexual' fantasies that I had as a young child are the same as or deeply connected to my current kinks and specific interests when it comes to sex, so my own experience is not intelligible within this framework you propose. It may apply to your experience, but if it leaves out the experiences of others and tries to rewrite them to fit the narrative your find most compelling, it is a dogma.

...thus she can be deceived in having sex with a fat overweight neckbeard due to pure platonic reasons. Therefore it is deceiving her into doing something she may not do if she had hormones.

Someone can have sex with someone they aren't attracted to without it being harmful to them. I think the example you bring up of a 'fat overweight neckbeard' is telling, because it's what society deems to be the most unattractive kind of man, that people are expected to feel disgust upon seeing. Having sex with someone who disgusts you can be a horrible experience on a purely sensory level, but there's also an element of social shame here that isn't inherent to the act of having sex with someone you're only platonically interested in. If that girl grows up and isn't attracted to someone with that body type it's not necessarily the case that she'd be harmed by her past experience, only if she saw what happened to her as a sign her own feelings at the time were wrong, that having sex with someone considered ugly by society is a sign of being corrupted or 'degenerate' in some way, or if that body type was genuinely disgusting to her based on her own sensual experiences and not social signals, in which case it's unlikely that the non-sexual disgust towards that person wouldn't also manifest in an unwillingness to have sex with that person prior to experiencing sexual attraction.

If you really push me I admit I did had some curiosity to adult women early as 8, but it was mixed in with abstractions.
True Lustful feelings didn't happen till 10.

People have sex for a variety of reasons, and not all of the non-exploitative reasons for having sex with someone involves attraction. While in your experience it may be way more enjoyable to have sex with or imagine having sex with the women and girls you're now attracted to, that doesn't mean that having kinky sex or masturbating in a way consistent with your prepubertal fantasies would have been bad or harmed you. If I had to wager a guess, I get the sense you'd worry that having had sex with your friends that were boys or an adult celebrity would have kept you from being able to be interested in women and girls now, which is way more enjoyable for you compared to your childhood experiences, is that correct? If that's your concern, I can assure that wouldn't prevent you from your lust for femininity. Someone can be romantically attracted to some people and sex-favorable towards them, and then later discover the type of person they're sexually attracted to, and move towards pursuing them instead because it feels better for them, and it's no big deal or problem except for bigotry. It's especially important to think about this in the context of being a guy who mostly or only is sexually attracted to women and girls, because female biphobia (not wanting to date bisexual or biromantic men) among cis women and girls is a huge problem endemic to western society right now. It's not an inherent danger of exploring sex before you can have a clear understanding of your own attractions, it's a problem of prejudice and ignorance.

The idea of having sex with someone without understanding the feelings you'll later associate with that, or even how they feel about it is one of the points I half-understand (I don't know if I've heard anyone else make it but it's occurred to me as an argument against prepubescent child-adult sex) when it comes to the informed consent argument. I don't think it's comparable to selling someone poison on the pretense of it being fruit juice because you can never predict the emotional consequences of a choice (you can't necessarily return something you've never tried before just because you didn't like how it tastes. Nobody lied to you about what it was just because you didn't have a personal reference for how it would affect you) even though it's something to consider (wanting to minimize future regret but this shouldn't be framed as a libertarian concern, as if someone's autonomy has been violated). It doesn't necessarily imply disgust (if you're not disgusted at the idea of certain contact with someone when you're supposedly not capable of sexual attraction, you won't necessarily be disgusted when you are) and adults can't control for the internal feelings of others in various ways (e.g. someone could be aroused by you shaking their hand). People may or may not make all kinds of choices under different circumstances, our choices never exist in a vacuum.

I agree completely.

[DANAT4T]

Have you forgot the risk of pregnancy STDs and learning about consent itself? Like I said if I'm pushed I can lower it from 13 to 11.5 but most children below 9-10 don't have a proper libido.They'll won't find anything strongly attractive but will still find anything potentially attractive because they lack hormones that put them in erotic mental states. This can lead to people taking of them.

When tanner stage 4 is puberty is done averaging 12-14, that is when one can say they are a biological adult with a strong libido capable with all mature behaviors like regular instead instead of ocassional periods. The best way to think of puberty is a bunch of components developing independently and 12-13 for girls and 13-14 for boys is when all systems are up and going.

So why not 13 AoC on both genders? That's already off the charts radical in most of the world today, but at least it has solid biological arguments unlike 18 AoC which is clearly the standard due to the public school systems average graduation deparature date.

Compulsory education is an immoral practice endorsed by the corporate elite. I mean actually lecturing children about sex, give me a break, boring. It all keeps the failed system of representative democracy in place.
If someone knows how to engage in sex, then they know the consequences of pregnancy and STDs.
You say children don't have full sex drive before 9, complete bulls**t.
Trust me, trying to appease the educated elites, is nonsense. Lucky that I have a lower than average sex drive. It must be torture for MAPs having to wait to their 13, if they have high sex drive.
Next you be telling me that climate change is real.
But hey, what do I know, I am only anarchist scum.

I consider myself an anarchist too and want to rid the world from any coercion that goes against a person's will.

Based on the evidence I understand Climate change is real and most of it is man made and involves greenhouse gasses trapping heat.

There is more to being an anarchist then just opposing coercion against a person's will.
Anyway, let's calm things down with a joke, shall we?
A CEO of a medium sized oil company in my local area has just gave me a 500 note. They have said that there is plenty more of where that came from.